“Telegram is not a private messenger. There’s nothing private about it. It’s the opposite. It’s a cloud messenger where every message you’ve ever sent or received is in plain text in a database that Telegram the organization controls and has access to it”

“It’s like a Russian oligarch starting an unencrypted version of WhatsApp, a pixel for pixel clone of WhatsApp. That should be kind of a difficult brand to operate. Somehow, they’ve done a really amazing job of convincing the whole world that this is an encrypted messaging app and that the founder is some kind of Russian dissident, even though he goes there once a month, the whole team lives in Russia, and their families are there.”

" What happened in France is they just chose not to respond to the subpoena. So that’s in violation of the law. And, he gets arrested in France, right? And everyone’s like, oh, France. But I think the key point is they have the data, like they can respond to the subpoenas where as Signal, for instance, doesn’t have access to the data and couldn’t respond to that same request.  To me it’s very obvious that Russia would’ve had a much less polite version of that conversation with Pavel Durov and the telegram team before this moment"

pro tip: there is no such thing as a fully private app or communications channel unless you are face to face with someone and in a Cone of Silence(tm).

And WhatsApp is worse. It fails to include a libre software license text file. We do not control it. It is never secure.

While that is true to a degree, it is still worthwhile to have a hierarchy of escalation about on which app or platform it is safe to say which thing and which not.

True. But there are still degrees of privacy you can achieve without going to extremes.

I've been saying this for years. Telegram is a social media app.

Yes, but did they have a sauna together afterwards?

Seriously though, Signal founder should be careful not to use too much free speech around this, as even sauna can have 2nd floor windows you can fall out of.

Just tell people Telegram and Whatsapp and the TenCent clones are all the same. Signal is a bit better, matrix should be standard, and indeed, face to face without any electronics and lots of background noise is still best.

Why is this interview happening inside a sauna?

It fails to include a libre software license text file.

I don't think this really makes sense as the leading point. More like "It's run by Meta and who knows what kind of backdoor they put in"

Yeah, it uses the signal protocol, but who's to say they don't have a secret member of every conversation.

Pretty sure signal is not the best option, but telegram should be avoided at all costs.

Remember how Telegram said they would stop providing Chinese authorities with user data during the Hong Kong protests. Implying that they were doing it at some stage.

Also remember how the FBI have said in several leaked documents they hate signal because the only data they get is when the user signed up and the last time they were online, nothing else.

Which app would you rather use?

Why not? I thought it was een interesting choice ;-P

It's also important to continue educating people about the fact that Signal is incredibly problematic as well, but not in the way most people think.

The issue with Signal is that your phone number is metadata. And people who think metadata is "just" data or that cross-referencing is some kind of sci-fi nonsense, are fundamentally misunderstanding how modern surveillance works.

By requiring phone numbers, Signal, despite its good encryption, inherently builds a social graph. The server operators, or anyone who gets that data, can see a map of who is talking to whom. The content is secure, but the connections are not.

Being able to map out who talks to whom is incredibly valuable. A three-letter agency can take the map of connections and overlay it with all the other data they vacuum up from other sources, such as location data, purchase histories, social media activity. If you become a "person of interest" for any reason, they instantly have your entire social circle mapped out.

Worse, the act of seeking out encrypted communication is itself a red flag. It's a perfect filter: "Show me everyone paranoid enough to use crypto." You're basically raising your hand.

So, in a twisted way, Signal being a tool for private conversations, makes it a perfect machine for mapping associations and identifying targets. The fact that Signal is operated centrally with the server located in the US, and it's being developed by people with connections to US intelligence while being constantly pushed as the best solution for private communication should give everyone a pause.

The kicker is that thanks to gag orders, companies are legally forbidden from telling you if the feds come knocking for this data. So even if Signal's intentions are pure, we'd never know how the data it collects is being used. The potential for abuse is baked right into the phone-number requirement.

Are they in a sauna?

Why do you say signal is not the best option? My only discomfort with it is the phone number requirement (and I think they maybe relaxed that)

She likes putting guests on the hot seat.

Signal is also not private

Context:
https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/6829998083994-Phone-Number-Privacy-and-Usernames-Deeper-Dive

Phone number requirements + afaik servers are in USA + it was some cryptocurrency related story (they tried to add some crypto wallet at some point)

Right? If they're just chatting this should be happening in a jacuzzi with nice glasses of milk 🍼 👍

How is signal not the best option?

Ah I am not bothered by the cryptocurrency … thing. It’s pretty well buried in the app, and doesn’t seem like anything they’re particularly trying to push. More like a failed experiment.

The onus is on you to back up that claim

Like in a sauna you should be completely exposed or something

What do you mean? DoD DOW uses it, it must be super secure /s

What?

Best alternative?

was hoping the reference was going to be recognized. :)

WHAT?!

It really depends on your needs and what people you communicate with are willing to use. A few platforms that are notable in no particular order.

SimpleX Chat is probably the gold standard right now. It uses absolutely no user IDs such as phone numbers, no usernames, no random strings of text. Instead, it creates unique, pairwise decentralized message queues for every single contact you have. Because there is no global identity, there is no metadata connecting your conversations together.

Session is a popular Signal alternative. It doesn't require a phone number and routes your messages through an onion-routed decentralized network that's similar to Tor. Since your IP address is hidden and messages are bounced through multiple nodes, no single server ever knows who is talking to whom, stripping away metadata.

Jami is completely decentralized, open-source platform. It uses Distributed Hash Tables to connect users directly to one another without a central server. Notably, it supports high-quality voice and video calls.

Dude for the first 15s I thought this is porn

If you watch the video - its explained starting at 1:13, Moxie built it himself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPRi7mAGp7I

Random mention of Matrix because I feel i should

Why is this interview happening inside a sauna?

It's his personal sauna. He built it himself.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DNV-qUfPZJ0/?hl=en

A floating sauna. He built this himself.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DNV-qUfPZJ0/?hl=en

Telegram has first party bot support, Signal doesn’t.

That’s the #1 reason I still have Telegram installed.

Let me have my own bot, officially, connected to Signal so I can do my nerdy automation shit through it and I’ll move over fully.

Please don’t link me any of the “just use a prepaid phone and…” hacks. I don’t want that, I want first party support.

heard SimpleX is really good, the only thing that bothers me is their vc funding model. It makes me feel a bit suspicious.

Yeah, I'm leery about anything where vcs are involved as well for obvious reasons. The tech itself does seem solid though, and it is open source. If it does start moving in a sketchy direction at least it could be forked at that point.

I wouldn't say it's worse. It technically claims to have end-to-end encryption while telegram doesn't. I wouldn't trust it at all because it's from Meta, but I don't see how you can say the one at least claiming to have encryption is worse than the one that just flat out doesn't have it.

I like your analysis, and would love your thoughts on matrix(assuming you have ofc)

Why did he invite the hot reporter chick to his sauna? would be the follow-up question...

It's better than Signal since you don't have to disclose any personal info, but people have pointed out some issues with federation in it. Again, it's one of those things that may or may not matter based on your use case.

its the sauna

It's important to remember that for a lot of programs that have some tangentially related crypto feature, crypto used to be popular. It still is popular in some circles. There was a time when it made sense to include those features because users were asking for it. So time, money, and energy was spent to add those features.

What do you expect them to do with those feature now? You really think they're just going to delete them? Why would they remove an already developed and implemented feature? They hurt nothing. People don't have to use them. Them existing doesn't take anything away from the app functionality.

It's like being upset that old car models weren't recalled to remove ash trays and cigarette lighters when smoking became unpopular.

Apparently they don't store contact info.

https://signal.org/blog/looking-back-as-the-world-moves-forward/

That link seems dated (Nov. 2024). If anyone finds a more current critique, pls send. I also get auto-kicked from HLC simplex group, so I'm not sure what to think of them but commando's matrix server was amazing befored abandoned

It is as long as you pay attention to who is in a group chat

It's not the wallet itself that bothers me (it is these days equivalent of adding some ai feature), but the story behind their involvement with and promotion of a particular blockchain or coin . Frankly can't recall all the details .

End to end encryption is worth nothing when WhatsApp have access to the encryption key. And the fact that all photos you see on WhatsApp are saved on your phone without encryption means that it's only encrypted when it's sent, nowhere else.

I also have very suspicious examples of advertising linked to WhatsApp conversations.