Are you able to answer the question or are you dodging it because the answer doesn’t line up with the narrative you’re pushing?

They said, as they dodged the question.

Did you want to win the election or not?

The world now recognizes that the only path to winning was to get Harris to change her stance on Gaza. Do you?

Well its the primaries now and this is the chance to get the most progressive democrats in the competition. You can only effect your representatives but that is how representative democracies work. It kinda sucks for me because we have a contested senate seat and one I definately don't like who is in the lead and one I do who is doing the worst in polls but there is another canidate who is better than the front runner and close to him in polls but I would prefer the other lady. Anyway I now have the choice of voting for who I want 100% or voting in the hopes of keeping the more blah canidate from being the democratic canidate. So its a lot like a general election choice. Let me put it this way. The front runner now has ads claiming he is looking to abolish ice but I can 100% say he was not doing that even as of two weeks ago but the opponent who is catching up to him was admant about that very early on (which is definately a point in her favor but she is still kinda establishment and I would prefer the other). This is for the illnois senate seat so Krishnamoorthi, Stratton, or Kelly. Basically I like kelly but would rather have stratton over kishna*. What do you think as someone ready to jump ship. Would you be happy if I voted for kelly and krishna* won? Would you want me to vote stratton even though kelly is a possibility. I mean maybe you would prefer one of the others over my placement but I assume progressives would also prefer kelly. What will make you happier with the democrats and remember its not a guarantee. Tell me as a progressive you like stratton over kelly and it will make it easy for me.

I asked you a question and you dodged it.

Answer it and I'll answer yours but there's no reason to engage with you until you do.

Its not a relevant question. We're talking about Harris and their campaign. I actually don't give a shit if you answer me, because you live with your whole ass exposed. Its no secret you didn't really give a shit about stopping Trump or you would have advocated that Harris change their policies.

I understand the world is a messy place with lots of shades of gray and that's scary to people who want it to be in black and white and have it easy to tell what's right and wrong as you do.

The question is relevant.

Bruh you are literally arguing with like, THE ratchet.

SatansMaggotyCumFart is a fascist and pro-genocide. All that matters to them is that they mantain ideological control of the party.

You've consistently argued against strategies that would have resulted in a Democratic W; there is no debating this.

You are a fraud, a fascist, a genocidal apologist, and should probably just go be a Republican. We could actually win elections if it were not for your involvement.

If you're refusing to answer it I won't spend the time to continue this conversation with you.

They haven't chosen the next democrat yet. Now is the time to be screaming that no one wants another corporate democrat, but we sure would love someone to come in and clean house and support working people.

I'm no longer concerned with winning. I'm more concerned with keeping my personal morals intact in this world of snakes and demons. If a candidate fits my criteria I'll vote for them, if they don't I won't. If that leads to a fascist takeover and the end to our way of life, so be it. I'll be at peace with myself which is now my top priority. I'm not scared of death or the end of the world. I'm scared of compromising myself.

This isn't a train station fam. No need to announce your departure.

You and yours handed this country to fascism.

There was one path to stopping Trump: The candidate needed to change their policy on Gaza.

You advocated against that path. Trump is yours.

In another comment in this thread you just called me and I quote 'a fascist and pro-genocide.'

There is not reason to continue this conversation with you until you can continue in a more civil fashion.

Supreme Court gave him immunity and he didn’t save democracy with it crazy work

Lotta fucking responding for someone not continuing this conversation.

You are both a fascist and pro-genocide. You advocated for electoral strategies which conclusivly led to fascism. You spent the entirety of 2023/ 24 demanding Democratic voters support genocide. You'll never escape from that.

Its funny because this is how I said people should be and intended myself but this is not about winning in the general. Which is what I was thinking about when I have said as much as you have here. Its about a centerist (and heck im a centerist) type democrat being the democrat on the ticket (and someone who I feel talks one way and does another) vs someone who seems a bit better all so I can gamble that the best one wins. I mean im sure krishna will be getting certain types to be talking about how bad the democrats are but maybe not with stratton so much. Then again stratton has been leuitant govenor and does not have a federal voting record to scrutinize. She might just be better at appearing better all said and done. She has been pushing to abolish ice but again from a state elected position that can't really do anything but call for it. Kelly is to me the best canidate and the most progressive but voting for her could hand it to krishna*. This is what democracy is and at the end of the day we actually have to live with the results of these elections. Now krishna* is still light years better than the best republican and 100% I will vote for hime in the general if he wins but I have to decide to gamble with kelly or mitigate with stratton. Heck the only reason I can be so unsure is because krishna* is not as bad as a republican so I can contemplate voting for kelly and we still have the general. If this was the general I would 100% vote for stratton because I could not take the risk. Again we have to live with our decisions. I sometimes feel folks just can't stand the responsibility of being in a democracy so want to take the high ground and claim our end situation is then other peoples fault because they took the high ground. (holy trump I have been using the star character and did not realize it would trigger markup type stuff)

Not after that debate. If he had stayed in, all Trump would have had to do was play clips from it.

I do think that he was a very good President. His entire legacy is tarnished by holding on too long. If this is it for America, historians will write volumes on how Fascist America was enabled by people like him (and RBG) holding on to power past their "best by" dates.

Trump sounds the exact same but he won so I don’t think you’re right.

After voting in Obama, who didn't want anything to do with prosecuting Bush & Cheney for warcrimes, and then Biden, who didn't want anything to do with prosecuting Trump, obviously. But I guess those times don't count for whatever fucking reason??

American reluctance to hold powerful figures accountable isn't a good thing and we've literally just left the question of whether you can prosecute a President at all dangling since we allowed Nixon to resign and fly away. That's qualitatively a bad thing. We have had decades of chances to fix this problem and it doesn't matter who we vote in, no one is dismantling the horrific things that are created in the meantime.

For example, instead of questioning why the TSA and it's security theater exists or whether or not the DHS was a good idea at all, we have people going "Oh but the TSA agents aren't getting paid!" They miss something like 60% of illicit items anyway, and if someone wanted to kill a mass amount of people they would just have to set off a bomb in the long security lines leading up to the airports. It's been security theater since the fucking Bush era, but it's become so normalized we're whining about people who are violating the fourth amendment against unlawful search and seizure by choosing us at random for an unlawful search of our bags not getting paid! Boo hoo! These people who helped throw the fourth amendment out the window two decades ago now aren't getting paid! Cry me a fucking river.

We voted, numerous times, as a country, to hold this kind of corruption to account and numerous times the people in charge failed us miserably, all the way back to Nixon.

That’s one hell of a detour away from the conversation we were having.

Holding Presidents accountable is a detour? Violation of constitutional norms is a detour? No wonder we're in this position, because apparently history and things that led to this outcome don't matter!

Dude sat on the Trump/Epstein files for 4 years and did nothing

This just in: investigations take longer in real life than on TV. Investigations of people with lots of lawyers take even more time and - stay with me - strategy.

Just because you didn't see something happening, doesn't mean it's not happening. That's like Object Permanence.

I get where you're coming from, but I'd still vote for my personal best candidate regardless of their viability. I feel like being against the elites and Zionists isn't that much of an ask from a candidate. I'm just tired of the liberal Democrats saying one thing and doing another. They've been doing that to me my whole life. I have to set up some guardrails or I'll lose myself.

Uhh, I guess that really depends on how old you are? If you're a millenial you've only seen 5-6 presidents and half of them are Republicans. So the "best of" list is really just like 2-3 people.

He would have only won if his staff could successfully manage a Weekend at Bernie's campaign. And even then, that doesn't make him the best or right choice.

Trump is not Biden's fault but Biden failed to act to prevent another Trump presidency by not aggressively prosecuting the J6 coup.

Chuck Schumer's dentures feel personally attacked.

Fucker tried to overthrow the government. If you can't convict someone for that and prevent him from running again in 4 years that's a serious failure to your duties as president. If the court system can't handle it then maybe he should have used his presidential immunity the fucking supreme court ruled to get rid of the threat.

Edit: also if biden wouldn't have hopped on taking momentum away from Bernie in the primaries, it probably would have been Trump vs Bernie. And I believe Bernie would have won 2 terms. I think biden did decent as president, but allowing an insurrectionist to run again was a huge error.

You're telling me 4 years was too short a time to build a case against an insurrectionist pedophile who was referenced more than any other individual in the files?

And your chastising me for object permanence? L O fucking L

Trumps voters like that he sounds like a common man, aka stupid. Democrats want to vote for someone smart and capable.

You are wasting your time my friend, these people will endlessly perform mental gymnastics to overcomplicate this into being something more than harm reduction.

yeah and kelly who I like and just compare krishna to her voting as they were both in the house. well both had to not run for the dem spot on their house seats so if they lose they will be out. That means if kelly does not win the senate then we will lose a nice progressive democrat from the federal legislature. sttraton again is state so its not as big a loss. krishna having someone else in his house seat might very well be a good thing as long as its a democrat. Ill tell you I am very divided. This has been one of the hardest decisions I have had in an election and its a primary. Honestly im not going to vote based on folks who I have no idea who they are on the internet. I have local folks to talk this stuff around with but I just wanted to express how complicated a democratic system is as well as the responsiblity of voting not just to you but whoever other actual human being us people are out there. I have a feeling many don't vote in primaries and don't really reflect on the decisions but will monday morning quarterback the trump out of the election later. Im not saying you do that im just expressing some frustration I have with the average american and lets face it those who bother to vote are the best of us. Man Im still so jelly because of the write in guy who is not in my district who I wish I could vote for.

So. like. the too-long-didn't-care is treating responsibility for things like it's zero sum game is stupid. Absolutely... incomprehensibly stupid.

Biden is absolutely repsonsible for having not done everything in his power as POTUS to put trump in jail.

and lets not forget... for the first half of Biden's presidency, he had both the house and the senate- not by supermajority levels, no. but they had control and they pissed it away with compromise.

And if you're going to give Biden credit for the Build Back Better bill and the other one... which I'm sure you do... then Biden can also take credit for that. (especially the decision to not pack the courts, or break the filibuster.)

Bro. It took Biden until October '24 to even realize that half of america lives pay check to pay check and is struggling to buy fucking food and housing.

Biden was not a good president. he just wasn't as bad as some of the others, and that's an incredibly low bar.

Also, good presidents lock up pedophiles.

one of the reasons Kamala had such a hard time was that she wasn't coming in on a fresh campaign, but rather trying to clean up and fix the mess Biden handed her. (there's other reasons like not distancing herself from biden on certain issues, too. And racism. racism and mysogeny probably didn't help, but that was surmountable.)

I agree, voting isn't simply casting a ballot. That's why I can't in good conscience vote for those that will do harm to my people or others. I'm a very active voter actually. I haven't missed a local election since I turned 18, decades ago. Unfortunately my local votes are all but meaningless as my district is 70% Republicans.

Both Biden and RBG trashed their legacies by failing to step aside

Merrick Fucking Garland was a poor choice in the first place, a sop to 'the other side' and he performed exactly as expected.

Bernie Sanders would have won against Trump all three races, if we just had to have an old white guy.

Biden was earnest, but he did not, and does not have the balls required in these modern times

Can we come back from this?

What a joke. Biden himself had the opportunity and the authority to start that process, and his entire administration farted around for three full years.

AP News 6 hours ago: Americans’ sympathies in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have shifted dramatically, new poll shows

You're heads in the sand thinking this is a minority extremist position. The people advocating for this saw where the winds were blowing and your ego still can't acknowledge it.

Mush for brains Biden isnt asking anything. He helped get us in the situation we are currently in, this is what Democrats always do, help make a mess then ask 'how did this happen?'

His arrogant hubris and the DNC not forcing him out gave us Trump, again.

His health was plain as day before he was elected, but liberals kept insisting it was only a stutter. They buried their heads in the sand so they could be the oppressors of the working class again.

yeah all the same if you don't vote for someone who might take out the republican you are losing your chance. the hanging chad thing in florida came down to a few votes. republicans have faced losses in heavily republican areas because of all the bull trump they have been doing. if a bunch more in your 70% do that and yours is not there to support. well you, me, we all live with that. clear conscience is great but living in a modern functioning democracy can be pretty nice to.

Yes, dude the majority of American voters are morons. The people in this thread you are arguing against are not the same group, we are trying to advocate how to engage that moronic majority.

Advocate for policies that impact their life. Spending billions on Isreal, to fund their genocide or not, instead of domestically is a huge issue that people care about. Pointing out the genocide was pointing to the way the wind was blowing for public support.

It was your party

If a persons red line wasn't genocide they don't deserve support, they deserve to lose

For being a minority we seem to hold all the power

We show up, we just don't vote for POS parties

How that's incrementalism working out for you? You've gone from the party of someone building houses for the needy to someone denying a genocide and telling protesters to shut up. We told the DNC what it would take to earn our vote and their solution was 'Im speaking'

So you didn't vote for Harris and you're part of the Independent media?

From what, Joe? From your inability to put Donald behind bars? From your inability to condemn genocide? From your crime bill?

This is how I feel with voting which is why I do third party or independent in every election/primary since 2014 (when I became eligible to vote).

You’ll notice all these comments are basically a criticism for Biden not being the superhero they wish for…

None speak to anything the admin did or what actually happened during his four years vs the four prior or after…

I'm torn. Do you think what you are doing is more like the 'Tu quoque' fallacy or more of a 'red herring'?

'Tu quoque' would be like, because we think you did thing X, your argument about A or B is invalid.

'red herring' would be like, instead of engaging the actual claim (that the campaign lost for strategic reasons), you’re trying to drag the conversation onto something about personal preference, which doesn’t answer the strategy argument at all.

Or it could just be an appeal to hypocrisy / circumstantial ad hominem, where you’re implying I don’t have standing to make the argument (or that my argument should be discounted) because of what you assume about my personal behavior.

Any which way, it doesn't do anything to detract from my claims.