1. My religion says you can’t do that to me, but I can do it to you.

Freedom from religion(TM)

Freedom from Sycophants, FFS.

You forgot these: uc

Kind of inevitable when they worship a god who is supposedly always right, yet evidently wrong and blatantly hypocritical. "Always right" obscures the hypocrisy, they twist themselves into knots trying to make it make sense instead of just admitting it is literal nonsense.

"That was the old covenant."

So god was wrong then, realized it, and changed?

"Well no, you're ignoring the context."

Slavery and rape were socially acceptable, and omnipotent god didn't want to rock the boat?

"We just can't understand omnipotence."

They somehow fail to acknowledge that if god is ALL-POWERFUL, literally anything that happens is because he chose it to happen.

"No, he gave us free will."

If he's all-powerful, there is no free will. He knew what we would do with it and chose to create us anyway. All of our choices are his choice. Also, what about times in the bible when god explicitly swayed someone's mind? And why are we being punished for someone else misusing the free will?

The bible exists to normalize, even glorify, abuse.

I hope people everywhere stop tolerating death cults.

"Fuck off."

Fixed it for ya.

You can't say "fuck" it's against my religion!

You can't tell me not to say "fuck", it's against MY religion!

You're bad at bible

FUCK!

"My religion says I can't get my kids vaccinated."

"Fuck off."

No, actually you are - that & logic.

Would you like to offer any arguments?

We will not accept fallacies or claims without evidence.

No one capable of thinking critically takes the bible seriously. It is a laughably stupid book that selfish, frightened morons use to cause real harm.

Look, I'm a member of your religion, and according to the strict interpretation, you can say fuck, but you can't tell someone that you can or can't say fuck.

And I may have just done that too.

One of my all-time favorites: "no Jesus fulfilled the law so we don't have to follow it anymore." Oh so we can do whatever we want now, the laws are gone! Don't worry about the ten commandments then.

Well fuck. I guess we're both heathens then...

Yes, lol. I don't even understand that phrasing. He came to fulfill the old testament law? How does one fulfill commands about beating slaves? "Not one jot or tiddle will change... except all the changes I'm making. But also I'm unchanging because I'm god." It frightens me when people assert that the bible contains no contradictions. It is a dangerous lack of critical thinking.

Jesus's real message was "do as I say, not as I do, and maybe I'll spare you my wrath." And then he didn't even say clearly what we should do. I like the golden rule. Jesus neither invented nor embodied it, he was a complete hypocrite according to the gospels.

Then why is it the best selling book of all time?

If you're so smart why are you 12?

Lol is this serious? You realize that just because a lot of people believe something doesn't automatically give it a single shred of authenticity.

Theoretical question, if Harry Potter were to eventually sell more copies, would that make it more authoritative than the bible?

Then why is it the best selling book of all time?

Remember when I said "We will not accept fallacies or claims without evidence"? The fallacy you just provided is called argumentum ad populum. Did you know that billions of people CAN all be wrong?

To answer your question, the bible is a useful tool for controlling the stupid masses. It's a weapon, a cancer, aggressively pushed on us until we all choke on it.

If you're so smart why are you 12?

I am 34. Check out my website. I wrote a song about the abuse your cult inflicted on me. https://snoopsqueak.com/

Twelve-year-olds with more intellectual integrity than you can identify the bible as a contradictory work of fiction.

Do you have any actual arguments, any specific responses to the points I have made? Or is this disconnected dumbassery all you have?

Yes, the free market decides

What's my cult?

People who read Wikipedia's list of fallacies page? We're both in that.

The bible is for sure utterly contradictory and mostly fiction, but there's also some decent opinion based stuff and some fuzzy history. But it's one of humanity's most important cultural artefacts, it's still worth knowing something about.

I have more dumbassery too, but you have to ration such valuable stuff.

What's my cult?

Are you telling me you're stupid enough to defend a bible you don't believe in? Did you... read it? Yahweh is a death god. Check my original comment. I made very specific arguments you still have not responded to.

The bible is for sure utterly contradictory and mostly fiction

It is a relief to hear you say so.

but there's also some decent opinion based stuff and some fuzzy history.

It's mostly deadly bullshit and outright lies. For example, the Exodus basically didn't happen. No global flood. No 6-day creation. No resurrection. Jesus did not invent the golden rule, nor did he live by it.

But it's one of humanity's most important cultural artefacts, it's still worth knowing something about.

I was raised on it, I know much about it. Hence my criticisms. Meanwhile, all you have offered is "you bible bad" with no explanation for how my interpretation is wrong or what you think would be better.

I have more dumbassery too, but you have to ration such valuable stuff.

Cute. People are dying for this shit.

People ask me why I, an atheist, am so political about my atheism. The answer, of course, is, that it's self defense against religion encroaching on my life via religious politics.

I don't think I'd enjoy having a serious discussion with you

We'll never know, you never tried. I'm not doing this because I enjoy it. I want to spare anyone from suffering the fate that befell me. There are more victims every day, but you don't give a shit.

Fuck you.

You've been telling me a lot about myself! Are you psychic?

I didn't know reality was so malleable as to be manipulated by belief.

I was being silly, but for real even if there is an objective reality (reasonable but hard to prove) it's going to be perceived reality that's relevant for most human matters.

Strongly disagree. Your perception of what the most efficient method of energy generation is, is entirely irrelevant. Your perception of geology and biology is entirely irrelevant. Opinion and feelings are not acceptable substitutions for objective reality.

Islam entered the chat.

When will we get rid of this right-wing artefact?

It feels like Jesus and God are well, sepparate entities too.

You need to be smart about it to deconvert people. Like, you need to understand the real stupid reasons people accept this religion, but you forgot or were never into most of it.

I'd argue objective reality is irrelevant, if everyone thinks Pelletiers are more efficient than stream turbines then that's what's going to get built. Maybe the use breeder reactors in the Realm of Forms, but here I'm stuck with coal because of PR.

A. Crowley with his Liber Al Vel Legis (Do what thou wilt, shall be everything of the Law): am I a joke to thou?!atheism@lemmy.world

The irony of this post is staggering.

Shut the fuck up. I was violently indoctrinated by my abusive christian parents. I know too much about it. I lived with a god in my head for decades. I know no one has good reason to pretend any god exists. It's deadly, selfish delusion every time. It's fear, an inability to say "I don't know". They submit because they are afraid of their violent abuser, and they call it "love". It's stupid. It's point-blank stupid.

I know why people lie. They're scared. But that's not good enough. Their choices are killing us all. It is intolerable. There is no excuse for it.

The hard part is getting them to admit it. They've trapped themselves in circular logic. They're smug about it, proud of their wrong choices. They refuse to apply critical thought because they're selfish, lazy, scared, incapable of facing reality. They need constant pushback from all directions to counter the constant reinforcement of their baseless ideas they give themselves and each other.

I can't deconvert anybody. They have to be confronted with sufficient evidence to trigger a change. Barring that, the least we can do is tell them how wrong they are with hopes it will sink in later.

It should be this simple: all life depends on the truth that defines it. There is only one truth. Falsehoods divide us, threaten all life. There is no evidence, argument, or reason to believe in god's existence. Therefore, it is in everybody's best interests not to pretend there is a god. The alternative is needless suffering and death.

I can't understand why that isn't enough for people. Their shortsighted idiocy is killing us now. We need to do more, faster.

And that's how a few satanic religions popped up, that said to do the thing the other religion doesn't want.

If you want to argue that objective reality is irrelevant, then you need to abandon any and all notions of it. Jump off a cliff, objectively reality says you'll die. Cut off your arm, objective reality says it won't grow back. Drink bleach, objective reality says you'll die.

You'd only argue against objective reality when it's convenient for supporting beliefs.

You first!

This is well-trodden philosophical territory that I don't think we're going to add much to.

NAMBLA, too.

Hopped on the back of the LGBTQ movement and just started echoing all the grievances as an excuse for sexual assault.

Then religious extremists used their bad faith as a popular critique of the larger movement. And the next 30 years was this stupid argument about whether Teletubbies were a grooming gang.

I mean, they've got a lot of things in there I like. Certainly some things I don't.

Can we have a little bit of Islam, as a treat?

Strong "You Can't Tell Me What To Do" Energy.

Because we've slapped "religion" on the front, it appears we're not going to address what it is that's being prohibited.

This isn't fucking Facebook, don't censor yourself

Fuck, Fuck, Fuck, Fuck.

Fuck, Fuck, Fuck, Fuck, Fuck, Fuck

Can we have a little bit of Islam, as a treat?

The issue is that there is still going to be a large number of fundies pushing the extreme and looking to set up a theocracy. Many of the average followers are not going to push back because they still view it as good by definition.

We see this in the ME and in the west with Christians eroding secular society. I don't want to be anti thiesit, but that's a risk all religions bring.

I think every religion comes with a dessert, I am just not why we need to sign up for the whole package. I'd rather pick and choose what makes sense and what not. But most of the religions are either the whole package or none. And this is very true for Islam in particular.

I am curious what are the things that are so special there that you like? Is it the history how hijab became a practice (Umar literally sexually harrassing women who went to take a shit, so that "allah" forces mohamed to institute the hijab)? Or the reason why adoption is banned, ie mohamed marrying his daughter in law after manipulating his adopted son to divorce her, after he saw her naked (that's actually a story in the quran itself)? Read up on those actual stories backed up the hadith and renowed scholars, crazy shit.

It's not the nice things that annoy me about religion, it's all the hidden fine details that are buried on page 120 of a 1000 terms and conditions.

The funny thing about religion is that, not only do people only subscribe to various fractions of the theology, if you don't believe it all then by some degree you aren't a true follower.

So you end up with a spectrum of believers where any one individual will claim that that who don't believe enough aren't true followers, but those who believe too much are extremists.

It seems to me that if you don't fully believe the theology you shouldn't be a follower. And if you do believe all of it you need psychiatric help.

I think every religion comes with a dessert, I am just not why we need to sign up for the whole package.

A lot of it is just historical baggage and superstition, stacked atop what are fundamentally secular morals and legal codes. You could ask much the same of any modern democratic(ish)ly produced legal system or any cultural obligation/taboo common to your neighborhood. South Carolina just legalized pinball this year, after a 70-year (largely unenforced) moratorium. Imagine if that proscription had been etched into a stone tablet under Hammurabi.

I am curious what are the things that are so special there that you like?

Prohibitions on usury (common to all Abrahamic religions) are a big one. Loan sharking is generally a bad social practice. A state policy that refuses to apply public law enforcement to the job of collections is a net-good for society.

For another, Muslim society supports as many as five distinct genders, which is a vast improvement over traditional western interpretations.

Even just getting down to the core tenants - the Five Pillars of the Islamic belief system - I can count three I generally like. Almsgiving, Fasting, and Pilgrimage all contribute to a plural society of shared wealth, shared sacrifice, and shared identity.

I don't even strictly hate the obligation towards modesty, as sexual tension among young people is a very well-documented and long-standing problem in any mixed-gender space. In the same way we must learn to control our bodily functions as children, we do well to learn to control our hormonal urges as young adults. Westerners largely recognize the utility of prohibition against outright nudity in public and the need for dress codes of one degree or another in schools. So a lot just boils down to the degree of undress.

So much of what rubs people the wrong way about any religion tends to be the mechanisms of enforcement. For the same reason you shouldn't be spanking your kids for wetting the bed, you shouldn't brand someone's face or cut off their nose for showing cleavage or chopping off fingers for shoplifting. Or for the same reason Americans generally support immigration restrictions, but have soured on ICE as a vehicle for enforcement.

It’s not the nice things that annoy me about religion, it’s all the hidden fine details that are buried on page 120 of a 1000 terms and conditions.

In my experience, Atheists can recount the aspects of religious organizations they despise by chapter and verse. But when it comes to the far more benign and broadly held tenants, you'd never know they existed.

No it isn't. This is the basic laws of physics. Philosophy asks questions that science cannot answer. You're not asking coherent questions, you're making self-defeating claims without basis. That's not philosophy, it's religion.