cross-posted from: https://piefed.social/c/noncredibledefense/p/1592996/let-the-alliance-of-democracy-hold-strong

Ahh the most non-credible of all the defenses.

"We just need to fill the hole with viet cong first."

Oh go away. Ukraine is not a democracy

A country that elected it's leaders and now fights for it's survival is not a democracy? Lolwut

Good leaders are those that care about their people. This guy refused to make an easy deal when he had a chance and wasted countless numbers of lives. He's a goner after this. That's why he refuses to hold elections - personal self preservation

the deal was to give up land captured by the aggressor of the war, and we have seen how much russia respects their deals

Just one more appeasement bro

Why the fuck would they take that shitty deal? Are you stupid?

Go bury more russians

i thought russia was done with actually hiring real people and used clankers instead

That's the second time this week I notice a troll user from thelemmy.club. anybody knows more about that instance? Maybe they are just outliers...

Why does it look like Canada's contemplating it? Lol

Considering Ukraine has a rule about not holding an election during crisis (Invasion by Russia), can't say the country is Undemocratic, mate.

Not to mention that shitload of citizens are all over the world, and another shitton under Russian occupation.

Unless you see those people undeserving of a vote, there is no seriously possible way to hold an election.

Not to mention, that no good leader would allow it's people to live under the rule of Putin.
Life is bloody insane for your average Russian. 40% spent on food alone.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russians-spending-food-doubles-following-ukraine-war-un-food-agency-2022-04-08/

And all this because the largest country in the world wanted more land. They have all the resources they would ever need.

So I believe that this would work fine when the middle person is being suspended, but I don't think the physics work out when you're dangling someone at the end.

The person at the other end would need to be working their ass off to keep them from falling, the person in the middle would just be a fulcrum basically and wouldn't be able to help much at all as the log spun in their hands.

It would probably work with more than three people. I think it's dicey with three, I think that if they all hold on they would all be going in the hole.

I guess it would also depend on how long the log is. I think it might work with a log longer than the one in the image. I think the one in the image is too short to get sufficient leverage.

The person in the middle would be supporting twice the weight of the person over the hole, and they would have to do it twice.
The person over the hole and the person not over the hole just has to hang on.

When the middle person is over the hole, the people at each end support half the weight of the person over the hole.

The length of the pole doesn't matter, as long as the person in the middle is in the middle of the pole and that the pole is more than twice the length of the hole.
If the pole was significantly long enough, then the force on the middle person could be reduced significantly, but it will always be more than the weight of 1 person.

So we're just ignoring the fact that the EU apparently has an absolutely jacked left arm?

Have you met their neighbors?

has a rule

It has the option to not in the state of emergency. That "rule" was passed as war was imminent. They are not prohibited from holding elections.

And regardless of if you think that's a good idea or not, it's not "democratic". Because words have meaning.

And all this because the largest country in the world wanted more land

That's . . . . not true? What Russia demanded was Ukranian neutrality as regards NATO, etc, along with concessions in the Donbass. They were supposedly making peace with that in Istanbul, when Johnson in particular moved to stop it.

Again, you can say that isn't true, nobody should trust Putin, or that Russia has no right to demand that. But to claim that it's a land grab as if it's a fact isn't correct.

Because the war is killing millions of people?

That wasn't the deal.

https://www.understandingwar.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/Fact20Sheet20Istanbul20Protocol20Draft20Agreement20of20April20152C2020222028129.pdf

The demands of Russia were that Ukraine would basically be demilitarized, security would be monitored by Russia and China through the UN, and Ukraine would be prohibited from formally or informally being a part of NATO, and the prior existing Mink Accords would be followed.

If you want to claim that Russia can't be trusted, etc, that's a different argument. But the deal that was put forward, over a million lives ago, wasn't about land captured.

True, you can tell I'm not very good at math.

So when someone is dangling the person in the middle will experience the weight of both of the other people, and the person at the other end will experience the entire bodyweight of the person dangling as upwards force on the log that they will have to hold onto. So if the two people on the ends weigh the same, does the the person at the other end get lifted off the ground by the weight of the dangling person; assuming the middle person is strong enough to hold them both up?

I guess what happens practically is that the person in the middle collapses onto the ground and the log gets torn out of the hands of the person at the other end and the dangler goes into the pit?

The "rule" is in the constitution. It even explicitly extends the term for parliament of ukraine by 5 years, and by their constitutional law it would be illegal for election to take place. Not to mention that you're missing the point about what is an election. It's not enough to put a ballot in the box. You must also provide the possibility to cast it for each citizen without external pressure, otherwise you can't trust the result. (Imagine if Russian soldiers were sent to collect the ballots with machine guns on their arms whether you'd like to join the Empire)

Ukrainian civilians are bombed daily. It's not exactly safe for them to vote. Not to mention the other 2 points, before.

NATO neutrality

I'm saying how it is, not what imaginative casus belli they are going for directed to the western audience. There was no way for Ukraine to join NATO due to ongoing conflict that started in 2014, so it never actually mattered for the neutrality question. Otherwise accepting Ukraine would also imply declaring war on Russia or at very least, freeze the conflict at Donbas with Crimea going to Russia.

When I'm talking about a land grab, I mean the idea to restore greater glory of the old russian empire or CCCP. It's not even hidden by now. Most high level (including Putin) politicians causally talks about it.

The country is rotten to the core. The one positive I heard is that reports about violence against women is actually handled by the police now. Mostly to fill in the vatnik quotas to send to the front.

That is arguably a far far far far worse deal, asking a country to demilitarize after being attacked in a war of pure aggression and greed, by a country that couldn't give a shit about international law is insane. The only deal Ukraine should accept is all of their land back with unconditional surrender of the Russian military in every square inch of Ukrainian land.

As I said, that's a different argument. But claiming that Russia was demanding land is just not the case.

in a war of pure aggression and greed

I don't support Russia or Putin. But their aim has been blatantly to not have NATO on their border here, and to have a series of buffer states.

The only deal Ukraine should accept

Given neither one of us is fighting in the trenches, I don't think either of us should be telling Ukrainian conscripts what they should or shouldn't accept. It's pretty morally repugnant to me to demand someone else fights and dies for something I won't.

It's the biggest of the 3.

so a worse deal than the talks I recall, okay. ill let you simmer on why demilitarizing while you are being invaded is a bad idea because I'm not explaining that to you

The "rule" is in the constitution

It's not. It says elections can be delayed in time of war, not that they must be. Please go read it yourself, to dispel this frequent myth.

And regardless if it's constitutional, not holding elections is not democratic. Because that's what the word means.

There was no way for Ukraine to join NATO

That actually IS in the amended constitution. And the MAP was submitted in 2008i. https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/833852.html

vatnik

Do you even know what that word means?

I don't need you explaining anything to me? You're claiming it was a land grab, and it wasn't. Seems you should get a better idea of the subject before deciding you need to lecture others.

Sorry, what part of the trenches you serving in again?

"We are equal -- let's walk side-by-side!"

Oh cool. 2008 action plan to join NATO. 2014 War with Russia started. Sure the argument could stand there.

But riddle me this, why the invasion? The War never ended, so the argument that Ukraine can't join NATO stands.

I mean I completely understand why they would like to join NATO, considering how Russia Georgia war started 2008

Vatnik is how I call Russians that support the war by their action/inaction. It's pejorative. The true origin was a meme if I recall. Although the more I learn about Russia the more I hate the every day Russian

we need a longer pole

Ah, so this is the big stick I've heard so much about.

You do get, if they accepted that deal, that would effectively be the end of Ukraine the moment Russia regroups for another attack. What country would accept a deal that effectively hands all power to their enemy. That isn't actually a deal, it's another act of aggression. Sure, it's not for us to decide. But you're even more delusional if you think Ukrainians want to hand additional power to Russia. It seems like you're accepting Russian propaganda as reality.

if you think Ukrainians want to hand additional power to Russia

We usually have things called elections to find out what people want to do.

It seems like you're accepting Russian propaganda as reality

No, again, I just don't call for wars I don't fight in.

Although the more I learn about Russia the more I hate the every day Russian

Meh, if we're going to blame the citizens for the country, my ire goes first to the US. Who's populous doesn't even have the excuses of WWII and the horrors of the 90s in Russia for their embrace of monsters.

Putin is a war criminal and should hang - but what he claims as precedents (illegal NATO unilateral bombing of Yugoslavia, illegal invasion of Iraq, etc) isn't made up either. The West is pretty ridiculous in yelling about warmongering when George W Bush is still a respected former President making pictures after killing a million people and most Americans can't even tell you what countries the US is bombing this week.

US and it's imperialistic crimes are nothing to sneeze at. Not gonna come close to try and justify what they have done (banana wars for ex.) / are doing (terror campaign against it's citizens for ex.)

We usually have things called elections to find out what people want to do.

How many democratic countries in defensive wars (ones where they have skin in the game) have held elections mid-war? Nobody doubts Britain's a democracy, but they suspended elections in WW2. And it's not like Churchill became PM fresh off an election campaign himself.

yeah and I was apparently wrong, so given your new information I have concluded that it is worse than my expectations.

do you really think that Ukraine not taking a deal that leaves them a complete sitting duck to a known greedy and aggressive country is the wrong play, or are you just trolling? regardless I'll leave you to think on this, or just continue spreading your nonsense. get a grip

Well if russia doesn't want millions of dead russians they should have not invaded.

Britain didn't suspend elections in WWII, they used a parliamentary trick to avoid them.

Nobody doubts Britain's a democracy

They're a monarchy. Without a constitution.

Must be nice to decide that Ukraine has to keep fighting when you're not one of the conscripts dying.

Lol

Russians and Ukraine are brother nations . It's is truly sad what zelenskiy did

"Security would be monitred by Russia and China" means that it would be monitored by the country who's just invaded you and its ally which means capitulation.

Again, if you want to say it's a bad deal,it's a different argument. Russia wasn't demanding territory,and that's what the poster was claiming.

It's winter.