Uh. So. That's already in there

The religion itself often ends up being quietly secondary to the community building, and I still don't know what replaces the Church for the non-religious.

What can act as community hubs are very dependant of the community, but really don't need to relate to religion. Especially if they serve as hub for people from different religious backgrounds

Aside from the places linked to religious activity, from any religion, the places that come to my mind, partly from my own experience, are:

• Local dedicated community centers, where they exist.
• Associations & clubs (the sport of school kind, not gentlemen's clubs)
• Sometimes shops.
  • The best community hub I used to go to was actually a "booksshop" dealing in mangas, anime, video games, and tabletop games. They often organised nocturnal tabletop gaming events. The shop served as a social hub even outside of these events, and the community was a safe place for some us not "misfits" (special interest nerds, LGBTQIA+ teens and adults, etc).

In other words, any community driven or community focused place or organisation can serve as a meaningful cosmopolitan social hub. People will gravitate naturally toward the hub·s centered around their interests. (Be it a religion, a sport, a social cause, a subculture, etc.)

Prettyuch exactly, but European Christians are not that affected by these issues. They are mostly aOK with LGBT etc. And representation of Christianity here is zero hate.

Christianity is a faith that changes based on where you are to meat you halve way. Look at the Catholic Church being torn apart by this.

There also is no Christian for Christianity is different depending on where you are. And hate preachers are a very American/Colonial thing.

Jesus: Did I fucking stutter?

Thats an interesting not-quite-straw-man .

Pointing out that someone isn't following the teachings they are claiming to follow doesn't require the accuser to be an adherent to those teachings.

I could call a self professed vegan a hypocrite if I saw them eating a steak, regardless of whether or not, I myself were a vegan.

Yeah as an outsider, the big welcoming social club aspect of religion is a big appeal.

I wonder if part of the reason it works when regular social clubs often don't is because of the "obligatory attendance" part. A lot of people have some great memories of school for instance, which is another place where all the attendees are obligated to attend even though the actual events that are hosted there are often boring as fuck. Maybe there's some kind of camaderie due to that, "We're all stuck here together with him/her" *gestures up at the teacher/pastor*

While at an actual social club, the socializing itself is the main reason for being there, and that means socializing can easily become a chore, rather than an escape.

I don't believe in the bible or jesus or any other fairy tales

Hate preachers are found everywhere religion is, on every continent, and the American Colonial "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" hate preachers were just that era's flavor.

For a brief history on that specific crowd, they came straight from Britain's hate-filled Puritans, who came straight from Knox's hate-filled iconoclastic crew in Scotland, and have moved forward though countless hate-filled Protestant church splits (because when they weren't hating everyone else they were hating each other) right up to this present-day hate-filled American whateverthefuck it is now.

Go ahead, look it up. Jonathan Edwards, Congregationalists, Puritans, John Knox, the Protestant Reformation.

I genuinely dare you.

When you do, you will see for yourself that your own example of Christian hate goes both forward and backward in hate just as far as you'd like to take it, and across every continent and era. Go ahead, I studied Christian church history, both east and west, all the way from the Desert Fathers to Zwingli, from Chrysostom to Billy Graham. I pulled that second para off the top of my head. I KNOW the history. That's why I'm not Christian anymore, and why you still are. So pull the other one.

As for the rest of your comment, you are free to define your deified hate fantasy however you like. It's no longer my personal concern.

I am well aware of history, but only looking for hate warps your perception of reality and breeds a hate filled world view.

YOU brought up hate, not me. It's YOUR hate, and YOUR hate fantasy. Own it.

And lol you do not know your own church history at all. You were just certain I didn't.

Tribalism seems to be an inate part of human character.

Not to say it's a good thing, just that we all have a tendency at a level which is not rational to find comfort and safety in the similar and familiar whilst distrusting and be uncomfortable with the dissimilar and unfamiliar.

You see this shit at all levels of human groups, not just "nations" and "races" but even "small town hostility towards strangers".

IMHO, NOT being a Racist (genuinelly so, not the performative shit of some people who think they're not Racist because, say, they support specific races which are a minority where they live because in their social circle that's what you're supposed to do and yet at the same time implicitly distrust people from other specific races for which there is no social approval - for example, "supporting Jews" whilst thinking that "Muslims are violent") is actually an active thing were one has to spot one's own internal tendency to make prejudicial assumptions based on people's appearance (both positive and negative assumptions - people's race neither makes them inherently better nor inherently worse) and stop oneself from making such assumptions or at least from acting on them.

Why do you constantly claim it was my church?

Christians in the US used to be this way. All the way through the first half of the 20th century the majority of protestants in the US were Socialist or Socialist adjacent as you describe. It was only through the state co-opting their movement and the radicals within it merging with the "America First" crowd around WWII that we got the current Christan nationalist movement..

You're fooling yourself by refusing to see what you'd rather not see.

Christian nationalism is flourishing in Europe as much as it is in the US and the UK right now: look at that long list of European countries on the Wikipedia sidebar.

It's a core part of the end-times fascism springing up all around us as an answer to the current world crises by trying to evade them altogether for some religious fantasy world.

Let's just have a quick look at the definition of Christian nationalism, shall we? Because I guarantee you that all of these adherents of Christian nationalism not only consider themselves Christians, they consider themselves to be the BEST Christians:

Christian nationalism is an ideology that espouses a form of religious nationalism that focuses on promoting the Christian views of its followers in order to achieve prominence or dominance in political, cultural, and social life.

In countries with a state church, Christian nationalists seek to preserve the status of a Christian state.

Christian nationalism has been observed to overlap with antisemitism, racism and ethnonationalism.

And I can tell you they are none too friendly when it comes to LGBT and trans, either. Even the European ones.

Christianity is not Christian Nationalism. Socialism ain't National Socialism either.

That doesn't count because I've never been to Egypt

Babies aren't very good at that

No one else is invested in defending it.

In a community dedicated to the discussion of atheism, no less.

If you're struggling with the distinction between pointing out hypocrisy and a claim of moral superiority then you're going to spend a lot of time being confused and/or upset.

That's why I posted the definition. We're not a community dedicated to religion, here in c/atheism, which is to say we may not be the same "make it up as you go along" types you seem more used to. There is an actual, formal meaning to the terms I linked, and you don't get to exclude Christian nationalists from Christian nationalism.

When you have to rearrange formal, well-understood definitions of social constructs in order to come back at someone saying something you don't like, it's probably time for you to recognize you have no real argument, and are just trolling.

Has anyone told you that you're stupid recently?

Just in case they haven't, I'm going to take this opportunity, right now, to tell you that you're stupid

That's a part of his identity

Impotent anger at things beyond his ken

That reminds me of my favorite Emo Philips joke:

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

But the thing is they dont.

As religion has declined, the vast majority of people who used to go to church weekly haven't replaced that by attending other community groups. And the "interest" part also fundamentally changes the nature of it. People going to church were often going there out of a sense of obligation. Parents don't drag their kids to the comic shop and make them hang out with people.

Well, it's a simple question. Where do your loyalties lie? Like one of your guitar guys (Johnny Mellencamp) said back in the 1980's...'You've gotta stand for something or you'll fall for anything'.

The coptic Christians also skating by on a technicality

Local man learns of circumcision

If you throw the social contract out the window, I'm no longer under any obligation to apply it to you.

c/therightcantmeme

Tu quoque fallacy.

"You said drinking is bad for people but I saw you drinking the other day"

It's also because of religion being an easy stand in for an existing class system because religion had been used as a signifier of class by the oppressors.

That's not to say protestants and Catholics haven't massacred each other solely over religion, but that's more the 30 years war

The average American knows nothing about the middle east beyond Israel and what little they know of the bible. Trying to explain to them that every country in the region has an ancient and generally at least somewhat protected Christian population is gonna be really difficult.

Also a decent chunk of the country used to be part of Mexico. I don't know why someone would be surprised that a Martinez would be an American citizen when Los Angeles is an American city

Jesus: Jesus, did I fucking stutter?

Who is excluding maga? I want everyone (including maga) to have Healthcare, education, workers rights, etc. I wouldn't go as far as "loving" but sure as he'll not excluding them.

Jesus:Jesus fucking Christ. Did I stutter?!? -Jesus, probably

This is why I laugh loudly and from the belly when the old "atheists have no spiritual guide to frame morality" chestnut rears its head in any conversation.

Wall of text incoming.

But the thing is they dont.

What make claim this general statement ?

As religion has declined, the vast majority of people who used to go to church weekly haven't replaced that by attending other community groups.

• religion != going to christian a church or temple
  • even practicing christians can have their own way of practicing
• non-religious people and secular social gatherings are much older than christian churches, and far more than any US church
• how can can you even claim "the vast majority of people who used to go to church weekly haven't replaced that by attending other community groups" ?

And the "interest" part also fundamentally changes the nature of it.

Yes, but what's your point?

People going to church were often going there out of a sense of obligation.

I don't know enough about the sociology behind this.
However, this sense of obligation can also apply to gatherings not related to any christian church. Peer pressure and other social norms are not reserved to religious groups from the christian family of religions, nor to any religious or ideological group.

Parents don't drag their kids to the comic shop and make them hang out with people.

Are you sure? I agree that not usual regarding a comic shop specically, but it still can happen. If not parents, other family members or friends can force someone into the forceful one's favourite gathering evenet/place. The place can be a comic shop. I actually have been pressured by someone to participate to a very private cultural club regrouping a fraction of the community I talked about. That "someone" was a member of the club, but didn't even ask other members consent before shoehorning me in. The club session didn't take place in the shop, but in some members' homes. Most accepted me, but still... others and I were forced to interact in this situations, and the only thing that helped is that we already interacted spontaneously and positively at several previous encounters.

Parents do indeed drag their kids to non religious social hubs and make them hang out with people :

• family events
• village / town events
• events with friends or colleagues
• public or private ceremonies (marriages, veteran ceremonies, etc)
• public events (fireworks, ball, promotional events, anything really)
• sports, cultural, or other clubs, even when none of the parents is a member of the club
• rallyes (the aristocrat networking event, not the vehicle race.)

Friends or relatives from the same generation can also do the same, to the same kind of hubs, plus others like nightclubs and their afterwork equivalent (that matches "events with friends or colleagues", but the noise and the mass of people adds much stress for some.)

I've personnally experienced most of that when I was a child / teen, and still experience part of it. And although I was a roman catholic as a child, the only times this forced socialisation happened linked to church activities were linked to marriages, communions, baptism or funeral. I never took part in catechism, nor in periodic masses, or any parish event. That didn't prevent me from finding a community. Actually, social norms and obligations were and still are one of the biggests obstacles preventing me from participating in significant way in a community. The others are social fears/anxiety, and poor mental health. (Due to working and living conditions degradation, as well as to the socio-ecological context, and the economics and politics that cause all of this. I hate the greed for any kind of domination, and the oppression and exploitation this greed encourages.)

Anyway, I don't understand your point about the "obligation" incentive, and the forced participation. It wasn't part of the discussions when I first answered, so it's not a point I discussed either.

Communities and social interactions, wether linked to any religion or not, can and will happen without external constraints.

The absence of pressure is even better. Forced social interactions are at best awkward and tiring. I usually find these abusives. They also implies power dynamics that will probably lead to further suffering, toxicity, or (potentially very serious) abuses. We should not encourage the use of religion as a domination system (or any such system really) to force and structure social interactions and community.

https://www.logicalfallacies.org/tu-quoque.html

100% Seconded. It's....odd to have to chime in on something like this but I really agree. Exhibitional stupidity, paraded proudly, like a peacock whose feathers were ill-informed words. Sadly, the internet is referred to as a medium; shitheads like this are neither rare nor well-done.

~~The fictional character Sister Fidelma, written by historian Peter Tremayne, is a nun of the celtic Christian church in Ireland before the catholic church got more influence. And she was a lawyer, had fully studied law by the rules of the time being. She was, by the law of the country back then, even a judge for minor, local cases. Sometimes she was conflicted between the teachings of the church and the law, and decided for the law. In one of the early novels that paint a picture of the course of her life, her professional career, her marriage to a monk, Tremayne writes down her final decision: If there should be a future situation in which she has to give up either her status as a nun or her status as a lawyer, she would decide for being a lawyer. Because, the more the church becomes an enemy of the human rights she believed in, the more it wouldn't be her church anymore.

As everyone loving human rights, she often has to decide between what is right and what is easy. E.g. when a local princeps fucks his daughters. Being a true believer can be life threatening. Remember the spiritual: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child, a long way from home. True believer. Sometimes I feel like I'm almost gone, like I'm all alone. True believer.~~

Some wear their cross on their breast, some on their back.

What if they're Central American citizens?

I do not know that Matt von something... is him known?

The author could be genuinely stupid, but is there really no hope he be just inventing the story to help christians steping out of nationalism?

I am not religious at all, but I think religious people reading him are pushed to a sentiment of anger toward the logic he describes which gives more importance to the hate toward migrants than to the religious duties... And he writes a bit too well to really ask what he should do in that case. Isn't it?

Why would that be bait? I'm speaking as a multilingual person who has lived in multiple countries. Even if you never study a day of that language, you are quickly going to learn how to refer to common objects and use basic verbs.

Tu quoque fallacy

huh, i didn't know there was a formalised name for this, TIL

That forced social obligation angle is an important if weird part of how churches benefit society in non-religious ways. People who only ever do what they want when they want end up in isolation bubbles.

As attendance at churches has plummeted while the remaining churches have politicized, people have replaced those communities on social media, which have algorithmically placed them in echo chambers.

And occasionally hanging out with friends is not participating in a third place like a church. They no longer regularly socialize with hundreds of community members they otherwise would never speak with. And that is a loss. It's one reason people are increasingly lonely.

Inknow people who are stuck in dead-end careers and hate their lives whonreally should just move somewhere else, but they're afraid to because they have like 5 people in the world they're close to, and literally don't knkw how they'd find a new socialmgroup if they moved across the country. The answer to that used to be to move to a new area, start attending church, and meet people.