Right, because second-hand EVs have yet to be invented.

That's what I do too. I just thought I'd pull out depreciation before a genius does.

You'll need to show data for that. Depreciation is not linear. The first year is worst and then not so bad.

Logistic curves tell us that there soon will come a time when ICE cars are basically stranded "assets". And I dare to say that time is closer than most think.

You can look up used car prices yourself. But sure.

2 year old E-Tron for 65k

5 year old E-Tron for 25k

That 5 year old one is starting to look like a pretty good bargain already. The 2 year old one not so much.

I can find you tons more pairs for EVs that have lost a ton of value going from 1-2 to 5-6 years old if you still don't believe me, but we'll have to discuss my hourly rate if I'm going to be working for you.

That's a ton of assumptions that I think do not hold any real water. The smartest car purchase for most urban or suburban commuters in the US (and likely most other car dependent countries) is a used EV. The best ones have heavily depreciated because of the top 10% churning their cars, they have 80-90% of their battery range (which most people don't even need), and they cost almost nothing to own and operate.

I would argue no one should be buying a car with the intention of selling it later, because all cars depreciate terribly (COVID was a very unique circumstance).

The warranty does not care about the value of the car, it's only for parts and repair so what you said doesn't make any sense.

Your other point is if you buy a depreciating asset with a loan and then lose your income you'll have a hard time paying off that loan. That's literally true for everything in the world. No one should be buying a car they can't afford, and definitely not with a loan they can't safely afford. There's always refinancing which would in your hypothetical would always be a better move as again the ongoing cost of an EV is something like 1/6th or 1/10th of a gas car.

I think you're giving terrible advice and have been given very bad information.

Not quite.

If you math that, it's actually $882

You didn't even do any math.

1500 kWh x $0.20/kWh = $300

1500 kWh x $0.15/kWh = $225

1500 kWh x $0.10/kWh = $150

Wait, easily save 5k/year? For how much annual mileage? I know for me with 11k miles annually, including service, the total annual cost is about €2k.

If you're going to reply, at least address what I wrote. You completely ignored everything I wrote.

Non-luxuries saw even bigger drops. Check out the Nissan Ariya, 2 years old already going as low as $20k.

That’s some weird logic. If you’re buying used, the more it depreciates before you buy it the better. Let the first owner pay the price for that new car smell. Assuming no issues, why on earth would I want to pay more for the same quality used car?

Not if you aren’t diving a Tesla. My 2023 Nissan is only 20% more than my 2017 Kia.

This is like asking whether you would like more money and saying no. It's also troubling some people have already forgotten the lessons of the 2008 financial crisis.

Cars crash; 6 million crash annually in the United States. They get sold. If you finance a vehicle, it may not be on your schedule. Loans are based on income, not residuals. Lose the income and the residuals are all that prevent negative equity. Crash the car and you may end up with a loan but no car.

If you are so high income or wealthy it doesn't matter, congratulations. Otherwise, naivete is not a great financial strategy with tens of thousands of dollars.

The best ones have heavily depreciated

Yes, like I said, actually used cars. Not something that's 2-3 years old. Those still have a ton left to lose.

I would argue no one should be buying a car with the intention of selling it later, because all cars depreciate terribly

They all do, but unless you want to be stuck with the same car until it literally dies, you're selling it. If you're buying a fairly new car, you're likely not planning on keeping it for 20 years, because if you're ok with driving a 20 year old car, you should just buy a 10 year old car and drive that for 10. And if you are planning to sell in about 5 years, which is what most people keep their cars for, used or not, wouldn't you want the one that loses 30-40% of its remaining value in that time, over the one that loses 60-70%?

The warranty does not care about the value of the car, it’s only for parts and repair so what you said doesn’t make any sense.

Unfortunately it does for some manufacturers of nice heavily depreciated EVs I'm eyeing ctrl+f "current value". I'm sure others will be following suit. Guy on reddit got told to piss off by dealer because battery replacement was going to cost 60k pounds and car worth 40k or less. Basically put up 20k of your own money to get a warranty job done, ridiculous. This with the manufacturer deciding the price of the battery in the first place because LG or whoever sure as shit doesn't charge them anywhere close to that amount.

No one should be buying a car they can’t afford, and definitely not with a loan they can’t safely afford.

And yet most people do. So when you've got 15k left to pay on your car and get laid off with only 6 months of income saved up (which is about 100x more in savings than the average person in some countries like the US) and have no idea if you'll get a new job in 3 months or 2 years, would you rather the market value of your car be 20k or 12k?

There's always refinancing

Yes, pay even more money by extending your loan. On something that's already underwater. This is why Americans for example are so fucked with vehicle debt. Many of them roll negative equity into their next loan, and the one after that and... you get the point. Soon the loan principals get much bigger than the cars are worth. Made worse by ever longer loans terms that are designed to sucker you into exactly that.

It says 50kWh cost me $31.50. I get 1400. 1400/50=28. 28*31.50=882.

Oh no, you're not getting me, I love depreciation. Re-read the first sentence.

Yes, it’s a good thing for buying a very used car.

Depreciation doesn't stop after 2 years. If you're the second owner of a lightly used car you intend to sell before the battery and powertrain warranty is over (as most do with EVs, at least here), you still get a fuckton of depreciation happening in the next few years with an EV, less so with ICE. If you're looking at something older, the extra depreciation benefits you a lot.

Personally I'm waiting for good 7-8 year old EVs to exist that are not Teslas. We're just a few years out from that for many popular models, at which point you can have the car of your dreams for 20k. For cars that were 100k new. If you get one that's 2 years old, it might still be 60-70k. Once that 100k car is around 20k, there's so little left to drop, you give no fucks. Even in my country there are now EV shops that will repair battery packs instead of replacing them so a few years of warranty isn't worth paying tens of thousands more for a car if you can probably get a battery pack repaired for <=5k in the very unlikely event that it fails. I'm not talking about gradual degradation, that's natural and not a big deal IMO with modern battery packs, I'm talking about actual sudden cell failure that leaves the car as a paperweight.

I've been looking at Jaguar I-Pace as I consider these sufficiently depreciated (can have one for ~15k), but I'm not a huge fan of crossovers and I dislike that most have no tow hitch and even if they do, they're rated to tow only 750 kg.

And to clarify while normally under "very used" I would mean 15 years or so, which is about what it takes an ICE vehicle to become properly cheap, for EVs this is slightly less, as you can get them super cheap at, like I said, ~7-8 years already.

I just meant that buying one that's 2-3 years old is still hella stupid because the next few years will continue to be brutal.

I really want an e-tron, but they don't make it for my model (Q7). I was hoping the Q9 might, but it doesn't look like it. I'm the guy that carpools everyone for friend outings, I need my SUV lol

In 2003 I bought a 1993 Mercedes for 5% of its sticker price, inflation-corrected. 80K Km, new-looking. Everyone warned me about maintenance costs but the '93 was a rugged beast. Family road trips and multiple moving days and a lot of mileage. I was prepared for some expensive repairs due to money saved in purchase costs but got through another 10 years no problems, other than the 4matic AWD computer which just turned it into a solid RWD until I bought a used replacement.

Gaming the ripe time to pick a used model really depends upon design and manufacturing, but the sweet spot for reliable brands seems to be 5-10 years.

In 2019 I bought a 2003 Mercedes for somewhere between 5 and 10 percent of its sticker price, I guess pretty close to 5 if inflation is accounted for. Maybe even less.

It had 380k km on the odometer, but it had been through Lithuania so some of the modules showed 700k km when interrogated. Previous owner also told me that there's no way the 380k km is original.

I did have to do maintenance on it, but the only thing that really let me down was the steering rack. It failed and then a reman replacement unit failed too. Only reason I got rid of the car, otherwise I'd still be driving it. Bulletproof engine and transmission.

Unfortunately the Ariya is something I find completely uninspiring. Somehow the interior seems even more dull than Tesla's. For the same price I could have a Mercedes EQC. For even less, I could have a Jaguar I-Pace, just have to go a bit older with those.

If the fuel crisis goes on, I may just get an early I-Pace in a few months though. Otherwise I was planning on waiting a few more years till slightly newer luxury models are similarly depreciated, preferably something non-crossover.

Bulletproof is just the beginning. A British car show did a multipart series of segments trying to ruin a w124 model, a 300te seven-seater 'station-wagon' and I think the cannonball ended it.

Lots of great features. The memory-adjusting drivers seat, third row, flat deck when seats were down that's just long enough to sleep on, the cargo cover, the crazy stable 5-point suspension and self-leveling system, sensitive AWD drive, skookum quiet sunroof, great wipers, wood trim, and ultra rugged mb-tex seat fabric. Also relatively safe, for the time.

The average level 1 charger overnight is enough for the average driver, except on excursion days, then a fast charge will top you up enough.

Still not following. You’d rather buy a 7 year old car that’s depreciated the same amount as a 2 year old car, regardless of any difference in quality of the two? I’m out the same amount either way and in EVs I’d rather have the more modern tech.

You seem much more into looks than pure cost of ownership anyway. Which to each their own but I can’t fathom talking about price and then targeting luxury brands. Even used, you’ve got higher maintenance costs than the standard brands. EVs still need tires, windshields, etc and even off brand parts for luxury are a lot more expensive.

Basic interior, but very comfy and amazingly cheap used in the US! One of the few cheaper models that had a heat pump standard and should comfortably be able to do a 150 mile round trip in snow without stopping to recharge even as the battery ages.

If you live in a cold environment a level 2 charger can be beneficial because the battery heaters that need to be on when charging don't have to run as long

Unless you are getting an old Nissan leaf, you’re probably going to be fine. Todays EV batteries are so energy dense they undergo less strain than the old versions.

There were 2 problems with early EV batteries. First, they were not actively cooled and could cook themselves to death over time. Today’s batteries have their own climate control.

Second, they were not very energy dense, so when they were being charged or discharged, you were moving a larger proportion of overall capacity in a short amount of time. Batteries do not like that. But as the capacities grew, the instantaneous load on the batteries dropped, so they didn’t have to work as hard to do the same thing. So they weren’t as abused and last longer.

Event first gen Chevy volts are rolling around happily on their original batteries with no noticeable loss in capacity to this day.

The Arya was overpriced and way too late in the first place. Nissan blew a huge lead.

My sister has my old leaf and 2 kids. The leaf is the household car. The grocery getter. The child fetcher. When they announced the buzz she wanted one so goddamn bad. It’s the return of the minivan in electric form. Exactly what she wants but alas cannot afford.

What are you spending annually on the diesel again?

Costs suck everywhere, but with an electric it’s a lot more manageable.

True, L2 charger is much cheaper than a heated garage.

This is like asking whether you would like more money and saying no.

Its like spending more money on a depreciating asset with the assumption of crashing it and needing the value to be high. Its the weirdest financial choice since the 2008 financial crisis. Hell like the 2008 crisis this is borrowing in such a stupid way that you are expecting failure.

People can not afford new cars, at all. Financing a car is always a losing proposition. And buying a car based off its potential payout in the future is very very odd. Even at 6 million crashed a year in the us, there are 297.5 million registered vehicles there as well. That is a 1/50 chance to have your car in a crash if you are average, and since I know of people who are crashing every year or two the mean driver should be above that. Are you crashing a car more? We are talking about a expected 20ish year lifespan of a car with those numbers, why are you acting like people are naive for not buying into this odd view?

If you are not a car salesman, maybe you should talk to less of them in your life? Since this sounds a lot like the sort of crazy koolade passed out at a consumer cult.

Ah yes the system that gives you the promo says.....

What is the rate?

None that are under $10K so far. Issue here is that people just flat out don't have the money for these yet. Maybe soon.

I work from home an if I need to commute I do it by train. So, if nothing goes awfully wrong, I'd say about 1K in maintenance and probably another 2K at the pump (high estimate). It is a small (~80bhp) old diesel, pre-AdBlue, so it is very economical. I sometimes get 900Km from a 50 liter tank.

No LCD screens, no subscriptions, no tracking. Just a car that takes me to places. Is there an equivalent car in the market?

Beats me they're all kind of different. It's like expecting household groceries to be the same as a restaraunt with the other math.

That is why you need the rate to know how much of a deal this is or is not. You can not make a claim of value without the value calculations.

I still worry about people like me who drive a LOT. I do about 35-40k miles a year. I don't think I can trust a battery to last through the loan with the kind of mileage I put on.

I can wrench on an ICE vehicle pretty easily to keep it running for a couple hundred thousand miles. I have a used 2004 F150 that's about to hit 600k miles on its original engine.

Just because an asset depreciates does not mean there is not value in a reduced rate.

The only value you are talking about is the book value, that all cars tend to lose over time making the whole idea of shopping with that in mind strange and pointless.

I'm glad someone else is talking about EV depreciation, although it is not a popular subject in this community.

I'm still very much pro-EV, and it's undoubtedly the future. But I think not talking about this one negative thing does a disservice to new potential EV buyers.

Still a big increase from my 2006 golf

Lol yes I can. If I don't have a stage 2 and I need that power, I need it. They charge their rate, as all do.

The best point I can make is you're telling me I'm getting ripped off because I'm away from home and starving and stop at McDonalds to get a burger which is 5$ but I could make that at home for 1$

Our configurator (VW AU) must be a bit different; 4WD is only available on the “GTX” variant here, which is priced well over the eligibility threshold for all of our EV tax benefits. Even getting the LWB (without selected options) under that threshold required a bit of cajoling! 😅

Here in Denmark fuel stations are closing so fast that a petrol or diesel car will soon be more difficult to operate than an electric one. I firmly believe that in the next 5 years, prices for petroleum powered cars will drop like a rock.

That’s how you lose a fortune to the sunk cost fallacy

USdefaultism.

We are discussing real world depreciation, a mark-to-market degradation in value. Book is only relevant to any financing, and if you are negative equity and lack the funds to bridge the gap.

The EV's should be cheaper. They don't need a big block of thick steel to hold the controlled explosions necessary to make the oily beasts move. Just batteries and gears. It should be way cheaper. Like, go-cart cheaper.

Well they do need a battery management system (BMS) and the battery is not cheap, but overall, even with that, EVs can be cheaper.