Source https://lemmy.zip/post/72029200/29026430

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There are valid arguments to be made regarding the independence of states under the US military umbrella, but South Korea and Taiwain are pretty far down that list of what you could fairly call a true vassal state. I'd look to the Middle East for true examples of vassal states, states that exist largely due to cooperating with the US, who would otherwise simple be replaced by the CIA, with no popular or ideological base of support, weak sense of national identity, and a large (majority?) population of guest workers.

Saudi Arabia is an example. All those weapons they bought was mostly a bribe to the United States. Saudi Arabia doesn't WANT to have a strong domestic military because they know they are unpopular and, looking to Egypt, recognize they would probably be toppled by an effective and unified military.

On the other hand, you have al Ansar, starved and penniless, beating Saudi forces becauses they actually believe in what they are fighting for, whereas nobody is willing to die for the corrupt House of Saud and no piece of expensive technology is going to change that fact.

South Korea and Taiwain are both legitimate governments with strong public support and national identity, BUT South Korea did do dumb shit like send troops to support American idiocy in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq. But notably, South Korea, having had its military defenses stripped and sent to Israel, recently told Trump to fuck off with his troop requests; with the economic collapse of the US imminent and its military exposed as easily compromised, the era of the American vassal state is quickly coming to the end.

[Edit: On my path to correcting the following opinion: The argument for Ukraine, which I've heard from what are perhaps pro-Russian sources, is that it is basically a weapons platform for the West to attack Russia forever. Ukraine is basically devastasted as a nation, it's industrial base destroyed, it's people fleeing, it's crops unplanted and unharvested, yet it continues to fight. Why? Because it's not a country, it's a weapons platform for the West. But that isn't one I'm going to defend because I don't know enough about the situation, but it is plausible (as the best propaganda is).]

As for Israel, a much stronger case can be made that the US is a vassal state of Israel. This business in the Gulf was explicitly, per Little Marco, at the request of Israel, and only benefits Israel at great expense to the US. The US is a wagged dog.

Well he aint lying here

Yes Ukraine the "weapons platform" that has to beg to be supplied ammunition. I will say that Western countries have used the Ukraine war as a testing field for modern weapon systems. However, I will laugh in your face if you tell me with any hint of seriousness you believe it's a US pawn. Ukraine is a European wildcard that rembers and resents the Russian Empire and is only allied with Nato for ammo and logistical support. It's not a secret that Nato is not friendly to Russia and wants to balkanize it, however Nato would never have had the balls to ever attack or threaten Russia. The reason Nato wants to balkanize Russia is that it keeps attacking neighbors and engaging in covert actions against western countries. If Russia had actually worked towards developing itself and it's European connections in the 1990s and 2000s it would be in a far better place. Rember that the USSR didn't collapse its states willingly dissolved it as soon as they had a chance to slip the collar of Moscow.

Russia rich in resources but destitute for leadership.

If you want I can steer you towards a very nice video essay series that goes over some of this with its sources cited that can help you branch off further

They're harmless imo

Hi, Ukrainian here. If we actually had the "weapon platform" these chucklefucks at .ml are imagining, Moscow would already be a neat round smoking crater. That is, if you need any further proof that it's bullshit.

Ukraine is basically devastasted as a nation, it's industrial base destroyed, it's people fleeing, it's crops unplanted and unharvested, yet it continues to fight. Why?

Because it's their country, if they can't protect their country and fold in just a minor pressure, they can't protect anything. They just had their independent fairly recently of course they gonna fight to their last breath to not rejoin the imperialist that they just escaped. What in Sheogorath is this argument, the mad god have more point than a russian tool.

Edit: you know why i know every tankie is a smooth brain? Apply the same argument to Hamas and Palestine and you will get a different argument from them.

Dictatorship of the bourgeois doesn't mean the same thing as just a dictatorship. Marx when he invented the terms dictatorship of the proletariat was referring to which class get what they want out of the government, not referring to a totalitarian single ruler control.

By the Marxist definition every western country is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie

Tankies like to overlook the fact Russia treats Eastern Europe and Central Asia the way US treats Latin America.

So one of your premises for making the fediverse better is to remove the parts you don’t like / don’t agree with?

Can you not just scroll past?

Some would suggest that silencing / censoring your opposition is quite a tankie thing to do…

Edit: Judging by the repliers I’ve chatted to some people really seem to care a lot about this. I gotta admire your passion… whilst still having a different opinion.

Oh, they're aware of it. They're just cool with that.

Let's make an instance for Nazis, then, while we're at it. Otherwise we aren't tolerant enough /s

They could call it something like @nazi.bar

I will say that Western countries have used the Ukraine war as a testing field for modern weapon systems.

Most new weapons systems they use are developed in Ukraine not in West.
West supplies traditional weapons all the new drone shit is domestic mostly.

Holy shit. My brain hurts from that last comment. Taiwan a "dictatorship of the bourgeoisie"? They ignore the fact that workers literally have worse rights and healtthcare coverage in the PRC and you arent even allowed to criticize government corruption in the PRC. You only have a chance if you are a ruthless government bureaucrat, party member and possibly a STEM major (see technocracy).

Also side note: since goat disappeared again, admins made me the mod again.

But that isn’t one I’m going to defend because I don’t know enough about the situation, but it is plausible (as the best propaganda is).

Please, name any attack on Russian soil performed by Nato, before Russia invaded Ukraine. I beg you. You can't? Oh.

By Nazi I’m assuming you mean fascist and then I saw the word “tolerant” and almost couldn’t reply.

My level of Nazi tolerance varies greatly; I’ll tell you why: words should be countered by words, direct action should be countered by direct action.

Does driving things underground have a history of eradicating said thing?

I would prefer to confront / convert a fascist before they make a move then to have to kill one after they made their move.

You however might be more blase about ending human lives than me, granted.

@ReichHereReichNow

Dictatorship of the bourgeois doesn’t mean the same thing as just a dictatorship. Marx when he invented the terms dictatorship of the proletariat was referring to which class get what they want out of the government, not referring to a totalitarian single ruler control.

By the Marxist definition every western country is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie

even overwhelmingly large pro-change majorities, with 80 percent of the public favoring a policy change, got that change only about 43 percent of the time.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B

this is the case in america, I don't know of a similar study done by taiwan, but it's likely the case there as well.

Words to be countered with words only when a person speaks in a good faith and is ready to listen. Thats almost never the case in the internet, unless you are in some low pop group chat where people value your personal opinion. Thats not a lemmy format, we are too numerous. I'm basically nobody to you, why my opinion even matters?

.ml is not speaking in a good faith, in fact they ban opposing opinions. Its red fash propaganda platform. Block is the way.

"Silencing / censoring" by asking that people merely block the propaganda instance via their personal block lists?

Yeah, that’s fine - but this just seems a bit like brigading.

If a person makes their own mind up, one way or another, good for them.

Nobody is “nobody” to me.

Sorry, but that’s just how I roll, baby.

So one of your premises for making the fediverse better is to remove the parts you don’t like / don’t agree with?

Literally this, yes.

I didn't assume it meant a single ruler system though. Also by Marxist definition, at least according to MLs single party dictatorships that concentrate power in a ruling elite while giving workers shitty employment conditions are supposedly dictatorships of the proletariat when they are far from it.

And my point is that MLs spout a lot of BS about countries that often have better conditions for workers than supposed socialist states. It especially goes for comparing a modern, hybrid system state or a welfare capitalist state to China or North Korea.

Well, the tankie instances very loudly advocate in defense of a terrorist state that is in fact attempting to end my life and life of every person in my country. Is that direct enough for you or am I not passing your purity test?

The post is evidence to help them make their mind up. It's not like the OP can block anyone for that person.

This is the fediverse where you can disassociate yourself from toxic assholes. It's not like someone is being offed or put in prison for their opinions irl. Plus they have their own spaces. It is more like excluding authoritarians from an org or a party and telling them to associate themselves with like minded individuals.

No one has to be forced to tolerate toxicity.

If that is your opinion, maybe you should find another comm. We support nations that are attacked or threatened by foreign aggressors here. Only exception is that probably most people are more on the Palestine than Israel side here.

Maybe you should mind your own business, and start with your Zionist country fully supporting murdering kids instead of lecturing people about morals (that most probably you dont have anyway)

Okay, I am gonna warn you right here to stop being belligerent. This is not a place to start fights with people.

I currently live in Taiwan and can confirm is not a dictatorship. The KMT just blocked the president on buying more defensive weapons from the USA because they are all China shills.

Yeah, whilst trying to paint an entire instance broadly with a single brush…

I pop over to .ml for a few communities most days - never discussed anything political whilst there and had a jolly time.

My fediverse experience would be lessened via a blanket defederation / instance blocking.

All valid… but surely you understand that some people just randomly go with the first instance they find?

I’m all for people personally curating feeds.

Not sure about purity tests, or really what that means here - I’m just giving an opinion. I’d be horrified if everybody else agreed with me…

The problem, from my perspective, is my "truth detector" is basically, "how much do they shit on the United States?" The more shitting there is, is the truthier the commenter. Throw in a few references like "hegemon" and "Epstein Class" and I'm a happy kitten.

I think what's most important to me is to counter-program years of US indoctrination, and seeing the US as a malign actor on the world stage is really the main ticket of entry.

That said, I have not completely taken leave of my senses and, yeah, the defenses of invading Ukraine never sat right with me. because territorial sovereigty is a core value of mine, and Russia has quite the habit of doing so and the defenses seem pretty far fetched.

I guess the sad reality is that in this space that everyone is selling something.

So, yes, if you'd like to put me onto a good YouTube series on Ukraine, I'll have a listen.

ml has a sign up form last I checked. It isn't just a click the first thing you see situation.

When their admins routinely push propaganda, ban users and delete content just based on their political disagreements and contrary to their own written rules (as thoroughly documented in this very community), it's much closer to the kind of thing you led with in your comment here. It wouldn't be excessive to want to stay away from the whole instance based on that.

some people just randomly go with the first instance they find

Hence this community, to give people more information on tankie instances.

Yeah, I get all that. But it’s opinion… I prefer to hear what everybody has to say, evaluate the source and then process what is said - and possibly why.

I get other people are different and just want to mute etc, nay bother.

I just don’t like people actively calling for a boycott. If you’re a functioning adult, pop over, have a look, maybe keep your mouth shut until you get the feel of the instance - and then make a decision…

it just seems a bit pitch forks and lanterns against the Bwci under the bridge.

(Plus it seems a bit weird to try and drive a wedge and foster resentment against where the devs of Lemmy be.)

Honestly, if I was on .ml and had already subscribed to the comms I wanted I’m not sure I’d bother to migrate… and slowly things would get quieter and quieter until I quit and told everybody I know, who’s tech literate, that the fediverse is dying.

When I first encountered .ml’s instance I actually wondered why the Republic of Mali had such a strong presence in the fediverse.

I’m a bellend - that was for someone else.

That's the same mentality that led to the rise of the Tea Party then from there MAGA. Oh, they're harmless, what will you even do if they win? /s

I don't know, if I was on .ml and saw links to posts where the instance's admins and mods are saying that killing people like me is a good idea, I would "bother to migrate". And then I would tell everybody I know, who cares to listen, that the fediverse isn't limited to a handful of fascist in red coats.

"West bad therefore China and Russia good" is exactly the kind of bullshit logic that MAGA peddle. Multiple governments can be evil at the same time and you're allowed to hate all of them.

Can you please not uncritically spread Russian propaganda in this comm? It's the kind of narratives that are normally ridiculed here.

Cool, now try to find what you accused me of in my comments.

"Independent economies? Not on my watch!"

Uncritically? I tagged it as likely pro-Russian propaganda and I doubt anyone would find it convincing after reading the replies.

Edit: Actually presenting an opinion and having users 99% dogpile it is a pretty good strategy for discrediting a position. Everyone reading reaffirms their group identity and dismisses the opinion as literal crazy talk. I think that's how r/worldnews worked. They would allow one or two people to state an opinion without being banned, but only so it could be brutalized by their flying monkeys.

This isn't the gotcha people think. These guys think China is a socialist state as it pumps out more billionaires than the US for the third straight year. It may just be me, but creating the fastest growing billionaire class in the world is completely incompatible with communism, let alone socialism. To make a long story short, they are delusional. Even worse than an American who thinks the US are the good guys.

Yes driving "opinions" underground has a great track record of lessening their impact, especially when they aren't true.

Look the world is complex, hitler didn't kill a single person himself but his words certainly lead to death.

A lie travels way faster than the truth, we know for a fact that the more acceptable hate speech becomes the more likely real life violence will become.

So words lead to concentration camps in the US and now where is the action against the action that you speak of?

Lefties always make tge stake of believing rightwingers are completely sincere when they speak when in fact they don't really care about the truth and entertaining them often serves only one purpose, getting their message out there.

I

Man I thought I was the only one. I just got banned from their memes instance for saying people should vote. Like at all.