(I'm just trying to learn. No hidden mockery in this and this is no gotcha bs aimed at t women. I'm NOT transphobic. Just saw this in a debate and wanted to know other people's thoughts)

I just want to know:

1. Is this factually correct?
2. If it is, does it matter? Why or why not?
3. How would you logically respond to this?
4. How does this statement not contradict with Trans Women are Women

Biological sex (male, female, intersex) refers to the physical aspects of your body, such as primary sex characteristics (reproductive organs), secondary sex characteristics (body hair, breasts, fat distribution, etc), hormone levels (estrogen, testosterone), and chromosomes.

Gender (man, woman, nonbinary, other terms) is more about an internal sense of self, how you see yourself and how you want your body to be, as well as what social category you belong in.

A trans woman is a person who was biologically male at birth, but sees herself as a woman/wants her body to align with her gender (woman). Not all trans women medically transition, and that's ok, but for those who do, it can change various aspects of their biological sex, such as hormone levels and secondary sex characteristics, so it may not be entirely true to say that trans women (post transition) are biologically male either.

It would depend on the context. The response depends on who is asking, their openness to learn and the reason for the statement. In isolation, it appears inflammatory rather than factual. It can be both.

Edit: forgot point 3

There are many different perspectives on this. I subscribe to the old Judith Butler perspective that sex=gender and they are both a social construct.

1. No, biological gender is not in the sphere of facts. Chromosomes, genitalia, hormones and biology in general are in the realm of facts. Lumping them together into the category "sex" is social construction and not scientific (at least not part of natural science).
2. I don't think it is.
3. See above.
4. Trans women are simply women who were not designated as such at birth. No need to mix in biology. Therefore no contradiction.

Are eunuchs biologically agender?

Are intersex people with chimerism or cryptorchidism biologically two genders at once?

Are women who have had hysterectomies biologically male?

The answer to all of the above is, and I say this with all the respect in the world, a resounding 'no.'

There's a lot to gleen from why the person is asking the question. It's not a good faith question. They already have their answer. I wouldn't engage it other than to ask another question like "why do you ask?" or "why does it matter?"

It is a statement not a question.

I think a lot of cis people share this curiosity.

1. "Biologically fe/male" is a pseudoscientific term created to delegitimize trans individuals, so

2. It does not matter

3. see above

4. It's intended to be a contradiction, an insidious doubt or caveat that delegitimizes the declaration that trans individuals are who they say they are.

Don't fall for it. Don't perpetuate it. Delete this post, is my advice.

Humans don't fit neatly into a male bucket and a female bucket. I'm not interested in discyssing this with anyone unless they're referring to studies from scientists and medical professionals who actually have some knowledge behind their statements.

What is a man? A miserable pile of...

Sorry, wrong thread😜😁

"How would you respond..."

Why are you asking me this question?

Why did you bring this up?

I'm in dire circumstances and need decent employment or I will not escape poverty. Are you going to do anything to help me?

Why are you thinking about this?

Do you even know or have met anyone trans?

Who are you?

Why are you asking me this question?

If you don't feel like answering that's alright.

Why did you bring this up?

Like I said, I wanna know more about this.

I'm in dire circumstances and need decent employment or I will not escape poverty. Are you going to do anything to help me

I'm sorry for your situation and I'm not in a position to help you, but if I got there, I will remember to help you.

Why are you thinking about this?

I wanna be absolutely sure I know what I'm talking about.

Do you even know or have met anyone trans?

I haven't and it doesn't matter.

Who are you?

An anonymous lemmy user.

Hey, like I said, I'm only trying to know more.

I know it's a very sensitive question and could be malicious depending on the intentions of a person.

So, if it hurt you, I'm really sorry.

Thank you so much.

Thanks

I wouldn't engage in discussion with people saying that. Nothing good can come from it, and they probably aren't people worth spending time with.

I was really scared to ask this question lol. But I needed to know. Thank you so much. That about sums it up.

And if it was too much of a sensitive question, I'm sorry for the rudeness. I just needed to know and I have no malicious intent.

That's true. But if they're babbling about that to a number of people, they might be mislead into believing their bs.
If I knew a proper response, I could call their bs out.

Ew stepped on a smelly pile of misandrshit

Why would I be hurt? I don't think it's a good faith question most of the time. Which is why I gave the answer I did.

Oh alr

I want to add that the phrase "biological male/female" is often used for othering trans people. I know no useful purpose for the term and I suggest you avoid using it too.

Yes. After all, all this is argument is only about words and lacking terminology.

Because this feels like a loaded statement, I'd respond like this: Biology makes mistakes. Biology is fallible. To frame this about biology is not sufficiently complex to address the issue.

1. Talk to experts.
2. The initial statement seems to me is that of a culture warrior, not a curious mind. Therefore it doesn't matter to me.
3. Compassion doesn't require logic. But if you want sonething slightly logical: I don't understand quantum physics either. I'm reliably informed it exists. Me being unable to grasp the uncertainty principle leaves me feeling uneasy and frustrated. Others may feel in a comparable way about gender identity. It's okay to admit that you don't get it. I don't fully understand it either. It's not okay to be an asshole about it.
4. Apples to rotten pears.

There are about 20 different ways of assigning someone a description of "male" or "female" - examples are the gametes someone produces, their genitals, their hormone levels, or how their brains are wired. Other species can have more than 2 genders or change from one gender to another, and it could be argued that mushrooms have hundreds of them. There are also organisms which have both male and female characteristics in the same body - in some cases, they have both genitals. The natural world is a messy place when it comes to gender, and there are no rules.

Humans like to define things, give them names and put them in neat little boxes, but nature isn't like that. Nature doesn't give a fuck that humans like to assign people one gender or another. Nature creates people who have some male and some female characteristics because there is no natural rule that says everything has to be one or the other. A person with male genitals can have a brain wired up in a female style. Their brain says they are female, but they were defined as male at birth. These are the people who society fails miserably in its rigid adherence to the philosophy of male/female, in a world where this distinction does not actually exist.

The words "biologically male" are loaded, creating an assumption that such a thing is easily definable, and that a person must be one gender or another. This is simply not the case.

I would say that is comparing personal identity to a medical definition, two independent and separate concepts.

Personally, I look at people pointing this out like I look at people that feel the need to point out to others that a woman has breast implants. It's her choice to do what she wants to her own body and pointing it out makes you look like a rude asshole.

They meant DNA not organs intact

It's a poorly timed castlevania symphony of the night quote lol

"What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk, have at you!"

LMFAO

I'm so sorry lol

breaking their nose

DNA isn't perfect either though. It's possible to be AMAB with XX chromosomes and AFAB with XY chromosomes (both still having the "correct" fully functional organs for their assigned gender). Some intersex people can also have multiple sets of DNA, some being XX and some being XY.

Neatly fitting all cases of biology into 2 categories like that is basically impossible anyway regardless of how you do it. "Biologically male/female" is basically impossible to define without also excluding some people that were born into each category. They're fundamentally useless terms that don't actually convey anything meaningful..

there are many types of chromosomes outside of xy and xx. and they are about as common as being trans. shit, its fairly common for karyotype tests to come back with only an x for people past a certain age, a lot of people lose their second sex chromosome over time. this would make many people have an unverifiable 'birth sex' beyond just what is physically in their pants

even if i did have an xy chromosome (i dont even know if i do) being biologically male or female is nebulous. "biological men" dont have big feminine tits and estrogen in them for decades, but i do. so at minimum i am something not phenotypically or biologically male or female despite identifying as a trans woman

"You're biologically a loser lmao"

It really wasn't directed towards you specifically. If I was standing around at work and this was asked then this is how I would respond. Which has happened. There is an obsession with this topic that has empowered the dumbest element in my society (American) to take power in my society. Due to those elements (conservatives) I have lost my job (my current pays 1/4 of what I was making), livelihood, and now face an economic collapse. I absolutely don't blame trans people for this, but recognize that their existence has led to my life becoming worse due to exploitation. Personally I just call people whatever pronoun out of politeness. They deserve equal rights under the law, but unfortunately the law doesn't mean much these days.

Mine and people like me (the poor) opinion ultimately does not matter, so I don't understand why the question keeps being asked. Would it change anything?

I would second all of this, except for the suggestion to delete it. It's a common question.

To reiterate, "biologically male" means very little scientifically. Sex in biology is far more complicated than most people understand.

It doesn't matter, because when we discuss gender socially, we're not describing reproductive capabilities. We don't stop calling women women when they go through menopause, for instance.

If someone wants to debate it, say no thanks. It's a waste of your time. If someone asks in good faith, you can explain it if you feel capable, or shrug and say you're not really sure, but it doesn't matter.

Follow up question:

"And why does it have any importance for you the presence or not of some chromosomes, so you need to be so explicit about it?"

It’s extremely hairy messy to define biological sex.
Whoever wants to argue has a middle school level understanding of biology, refuse to learn and completely ignores the science.

See

Damn, wth are you going through?

It’s extremely hairy to define biological sex.

Ermm.. What is that sentence dude?

There was a famous physicist. Maybe Einstein or Feynman who said to the effect "anyone who claims to understand quantum mechanics most certainly does not"

Fixed… -w-

In this context, "hairy" can mean "tricky" or "difficult".

Yeah, biology is a fucking mess is the thing. I happen to be aware of a medical condition a woman can have where they literally have male chromosomes but completely female sexual characteristics.

It’s extremely hairy to define biological sex.

Doubly so after puberty.

In general, please don’t ask loaded, third-rail questions on !asklemmy@lemmy.ml, because

1. it’s a PITA for mods, and
2. that’s not what the community is for:. It’s supposed to be a clone of r/askreddit.

Would ask to provide separate definitions for woman, man, male and female. We can't jump to conclusions about someone's statement before seeing the whole picture of what is happening in his mind.

I was only explaining what they meant, not conjecture. There's like 40+ DNA xy type variants...there's an info graphic somewhere. Biology DNA would also be different than phenotype oresented.