Epstein didn't kill himself.

Yes, you are when you say that wishing death is different from wanting perpetrators to change. Even then, this assumes that their changing would be enough for their victims to feel that justice has been done, but again, you don't care about them. And now there's no difference so long as the victim can't personally deliver that justice by killing these men? Wow, how convenient, it's almost like that way of thinking would mean that they're responsible to end that harm to be justified in wishing death on these men rather than change.

That your response was to attempt some bullshit first year mind-body problem argument is telling too. You seriously dont give a shit about why these men are bad or how their victims feel, you just saw an opportunity to flex some fantasy morally pure version of yourself. You feel right about that as long as you can be moral about forgiving some monster who didn't hurt you, is now dead, and therefore can never challenge your stance on them? Nice, yeah dude, you're so dedicated to the greater good, and morality or reform, or whatever you don't have to actually change yourself to do.

I can sit around hoping certain individuals will die soon, knowing that it will happen eventually and the world will be a better, safer place because of it. For the most part, hoping these people change themselves is almost certainly a fanciful notion that will never come to pass, so why waste time considering it?

Oh yeah, why aren't all fascists dead then?

Unless we're talking about taking action both are just states of one's own mind. I mean unless you have a belief there is a mechanism where one's belief alone can affect the world of which some do. I don't personally so I maintain what I personally consider to be a better outcome for the world in my mind. Like for instance a leader of a hate group denouncing the hate group and working the rest of their days against their message is something that has happened and will happen again and is something I consider to be a much more valuable outcome than them just dying with all their followers still following them. Obviously death is far more common than just about anything for a living organism to do, it's kinda like the trivial solution to an equation.

I mean death is about one of the most common things possible for any living being. Leaders of hate groups do indeed leave their post, denounce their beliefs and repent from time to time and it's a far more powerful gesture against what they embody than just up and dying while preaching the same old thing, with their followers still as invigorated by their message and actions.

Now as for victims, it's a tough call there. Obviously there are lots of punishments victims desire that even the law denounces as cruel and unusual or otherwise illegal and typically we don't have much issue with that short of debates over capital punishment (which I'm also against but mainly because I don't believe any government should lawfully be able to kill its citizens outside law enforcement in extreme circumstances of self defense). Ultimately we're all going to die no matter what. Somewhere out in the future is the heat death of the universe, as for now to me I would prefer the symbolic gesture of one denouncing their old ways while they live and breathe instead of the trivial solution.

I have my own views and you have your own and I never said anything about any ultimate morality between you and I. You're free to take it that way if you please and you're free to want anyone and everyone to die as you see fit. I personally just don't and that's my own right and choice.

"I don't personally so I maintain what I personally consider to be a better outcome for the world in my mind."

Stop acting like you've both thought this through deeply and aren't responsible for the consequences of what you advocate for. This is not some fucking opinion on a movie or video game, you are talking about real people who contributed to real violence within a real system that requires that violence to exist and rewarded them for facilitating it. Yes, when you sit here and act as though Nazi reform is more important than whatever their victims want, you are advocating for a way of thinking that correlates with actions that just so happen to devalue the harm done to victims of racism, sexism, ableism, transphobia, queerphobia. It does not matter what would be best if we had a thousand years without capitalism or settler-colonialism to reform these men with, we don't have that and never will. We do have the consequences of their actions, and the people it affects.

Stop hiding around "my personal opinion" or the notion that you're somehow even remotely concerned about benefitting others, you aren't concerned, but you are responsible for what you say.

No, it fucking isn't. Please, generate a source that shows that more Nazis are stopped by being told they were wrong the whole time (they didn't know, you see, they thought everyone was having happy fun time) than by being forced to stop. How many people do you think they'd need to kill in the meantime before that is no longer more "powerful?"

I also love how you think you seem thoughtful for referencing rights of the state to take life, as though you give a shit about that either, to defend against killing these men when you're looking at an image that includes some of the most powerful individuals in this system. How fucking unreal to suggest that you can even make that "tough call," for people you have no right making a call for at all, and then act like you're even thinking about them by saying the system they were victimized by shouldn't have the right to kill the people who are complicit in the violence that effects these victims. Nobody's even talking about that, because that wouldn't even be on the board by the very nature of the violence that these men committed and how.

lmao, could you imagine, not having your "rights" respected? You're so thoughtless and complicit it's fucking sickening. I won't be interacting with you again.

If we're talking about taking action that's a very different story. Of course moments require action but we are assuming neither you or I or anyone else is taking action thus such feelings or ideas exist only in the minds of people and not in physical reality. In this circumstance I'm not sure what you wishing for someone's death in your mind is going to do for anyone but yourself and you're more than free to do it. Obviously I would prefer people causing harm to stop, denounce their actions, and repent. It's not that it never happens but it is uncommon, typically it is a far worse punishment than death so most tend to avoid it at all costs.

That is people are far more likely to choose death than admit that they were truly wrong. I still maintain those committing awful acts and embodying needless and avoidable human suffering would leave a greater mark on those like them or those who wish to be like them if they do indeed change instead of just die preaching the same old thing with all their words and actions intact for their followers and copycats.

There's a reason the worst thing to almost all religions are people who left the faith but were once very deep into the faith. They know it's the number one way you change people's minds and kill not a person but an idea.

When people just die it doesn't do much to change anything aka all their followers and believers are still there following and believing just the same.

I never said don't not tell people they're wrong. But for instance one of the most dangerous things in any faith are ex-believers and every religion knows they are dangerous because of how effective they are at changing people's minds. Leaving a faith is typically one of the greatest sins to said faith. That's not an accident, they understand marketing and how ideas die. Now some ideas are tough to kill. There's always going to be some person who wants to control everything at essentially any cost, I'm not sure that's going anywhere anytime soon. Same with the idea that X people are good and Y people are bad not based on actions of said people. That is tribalism isn't likely to go away anytime soon regardless of really anything we do short of genetically altering humanity. It's like the idea of war or hatred itself, it's too fundamental to our organism to go anywhere without some particularly extreme efforts. That's not to say ideas don't die. There's been a plethora of bad people leading bad causes essentially lost to time and that's because ideas do die for all sorts of reasons including people denouncing them.

This was kinda funny

Thanks, I honestly couldn't understand what the meaning of all that was.

But Charlie Kirk did. Just in a very roundabout way.

LMAO.

(And I don't even know who Hermain Cain is. I did say bottom corner. :p lol)

Please tell me you're in on the joke, and didn't really think that was a clarification for you...

I yam.

The thing about torture is people will tell you whatever you want to hear. It's well known that it's not useful for getting the truth out of someone.

Certain ideas are difficult to kill, like the idea of war or the idea of tribalism or the idea of trying to control everyone. It ebbs and flows, falls in and out of fashion so to speak.