Yeah, I get your argument, and obviously it's good to have instances with different federation policies. It's just that when big instances like the ones in this chart start swinging the defederation hammer around, I worry that some (or many) users end up disconnected from users and communities without ever realizing it or agreeing with the decision.

Have you ever tried to organize a fun game night with friends but two of them just can't get along, ruining the whole thing? That's kinda the feeling I get from this.

Well that's a confusing graph.

Thanks, that works! :3

What's the beef between beehaw and lemmy.world?

According to beehaw there's no beef, it's just too many users for them to effectively moderate

Yeah, as someone who is struggling to understand the concept of federation...this doesn't help me at all.

I guess what its saying, if you're on lemmy.world, you can't access content on lemmy.zip?

Very proud of lemmy.zip! Joined very early on cause the name sounded cool lol, and apparently a lot of others also did. If i remember right we had a vote on defederations and the only major one to happen(or maybe the only one, idk) was exploding heads which was a nazi instance with CSAM on it so that was obvious, even that was mainly cause of the CSAM. I really like the approach of users being able to block instances and communities rather than the instance deciding for me. I still have ml and hexbear blocked tho cause they banned me after i stood up for trans rights or something lol

feddit.org has a rule against porn in general, so it would make no sense to federate with them given that that's what their focus is

Not so much beef as in beehaw could not manage the torrent of content coming their way from world

Block the "default". That's actually pretty clever. Not because you dislike those people, but because it's the default and requires extra effort to not be a part of.

Since defederating is essentially an explicit block list and is directional, my assumption is that the groups that are circled have defederated from the things they're pointing at. I could be wrong.

Map needs a key/legend.

The red circled stuff seems to be only one possible option, but isn't visually very distinct, and the red circle shouldn't be broken like that, just make sure the lines are all visible.

The ones at the bottom that are below the None category aren't defederated from anyone, so they can access every instance.

Wow, infosec.pub is based!

Call it the forumverse, it's a federated multiverse of forums

Blahaj are very reasonable and nice.

That's slander!

We also like Star Trek!

Our instance deferated fedinsfw because of the adult porn pretending to be child porn pretending to be adult porn. According to Australian law, fake child porn is legally considered child porn, and also our users think it's gross.

I think the bigger reason for fedinsfw's defederation, at least in terms of our instance and Blahaj, is the fake CP. Might be the case for other instances in the black box too.

also worth noting that I'd have all the data in the Lemmyverse.net data, I could probably build a page that shows something similar to this graph.

Does that mean that discuss does not federate with lmmy.ml, lemmygrad, programming.dev and hexbears?

What's with feddit.org?

.zip and Demogodrick definitely cool.

I also lucked out by joining here just because I couldnt join more popular instances at the time. Happy that I landed here

The admins of feddit.org are afraid of german police coming for their servers and therefore ban content that is possibly illegal in germany quite liberally. Since german courts are sometimes weird this includes some Pro-Palestine content that could be interpreted as Anti-Israel (e.g. the chant "From the river to the sea..."). That topic in particular pissed of the dbzero community which then defereated feddit.org for being "Zionists".

Does it open with the cached version from my instance?

I mean, it is kinda. Anticipatory obedience makes you complicit.

The only person who would think that is someone who is equally toxic.

It's pretty intuitive once you get the idea, so I don't think the map by itself is bad. Maybe just needed an extra explanation about the encircled instances.

What the hell are Hexbear and Lemmygrad and what did they do that everyone's blocking them?

I get the same impression, generally chill people.

Difficult when people here only like 5 things and they shun everything that is not those 5 things.

Yup. Anticipatory obedience isn't the way to go!

Uhm, this was translated right? "vorauseilender Gehorsam"

No, discuss is only in the blue box, which's arrow points to lemmygrad, so they defederated from them.

You must not read this Graph like a Venn diagram

1. Internet is made of cats

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

We might read the diagram differently, but I only see a defederation with lemmygrad.

That link does open.

Awww, thanks!

Lammygrad are Marxist Leninist, Hexbear are dirtbag leftists. That makes them the natural enemies of center-left and centrist instances like .world.

In my opinion it comes down to a disagreement over capitalism. One side wants to destroy it, the other side wants to moderate it.

If I'm reading it correctly, lemmy.world cut ties from lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net while hexbear.net and beehaw.org cut ties with lemmy.world. lemmy.zip appears to be connected to everyone.

Why would they do that? I'm unaware of internal issues in Lemmy at this point?

Correct 👍

Apologies for the confusion; didn't want to make it overly cluttered, but in retrospect I see that a legend would have been useful. I'll incorporate suggestions in a revision.

Ideological differences. Lemmy.world is liberal, while lemmygrad and hexbear are hardcore communists (aka tankies).

Okay but... have you ever tried to force your group to get together despite those two being unable to get along? e.g. Russia vs. Ukraine? China vs. Taiwan? Israel vs. Palestine? USA vs. a neighbor with oil?

Whether one side (e.g. Ukraine) can "get along with" the other side there (e.g. Russia) depends a LOT on whether they are able to agree to follow some shared rules (e.g. to not murder the other side). These are not mere political differences in the sense of left vs. right, but rather those who are proud to remain ungovernable (while seemingly not understanding what that phrase originally was intended to mean) vs. those who would rather nope out entirely than exist side-by-side with them.

Please also note that Lemmy's block tools are so misleadingly misnamed as to be almost worthy of the moniker of calling it disinformation. What "blocking an instance" does is to:

• Mute communities on that instance from the user, preventing discoverability and blocking that content from showing in your personal feed, including when browsing All

What that so-called "blocking" does NOT do:

• Hide content from those users submitted to communities on remote instances
• Prevent those users from being able to reply to, famously including vote brigading on, your own content
• Prevent those users from sending you DMs, which at first were not allowed to trigger notifications, but the Lemmy devs reversed that decision and now these "blocked users" can trigger notifications - which bc of the "style" preferred by people on those instances, can continue for WEEKS and WEEKS after you so much as reply to a post that you encountered on All, without having read the sidebar and so not knowing that this style differs from what you are used to

Besides, even if insurance blocking actually worked, it would still do nothing to not showcase the content for an anonymous guest account or a newly created account, i.e. it does nothing to help others deal with "the situation", only yourself. Which is especially notable when people access Lemmy's content from apps like Voyager that by default does not show the instance name, thereby treating all content from all instances as being equal. However, I would argue that e.g. Poland does not fear attack from all nations equally - does Poland want to be on guard against Taiwan? Or North or South Korea? What about Russia?

Defederation is a blunt tool, but is virtually the only one offered by the Lemmy devs. When the software is made more robust to offer some other alternative... then this issue can be revisited at that time.

Also, you are free at any to self-host your own instance. But to tell Ukraine and Russia that they must get along... or else what? I am saying that I reject the underlying premise of your argument. "People getting along" should not be the ultimate goal of the Threadiverse. A better goal IMHO would be "People enjoying their experiences while here". Which for many, means blocking Hexbear - and yes, for some it means NOT blocking it - and therefore since the answer is neither a clear yay or nay, we are forced into preaching the controversy for every new potential member, even though that very complexity itself is often what drives others away.

Though PieFed.zip offers an intriguing and innovative compromise: upon joining the instance a user block is placed upon the Hexbear and lemmygrad instances, and a message sent to the new user about how to remove or place such blocks. This makes federation with those highly controversial instances as opt-in, as opposed to opt-out or impossible to block or not block. That's really neat! However, that delves into a whole other can of worms on how PieFed instance blocks have problems - namely that people on the receiving end can still reply to them, though only people on the same originating instance will see those replies (or perhaps it's worse and everyone using Lemmy will see them while everyone using PieFed will not? or perhaps something else altogether?). Also this in turn opens up an entirely new rabbit hole on top of that, where Lemmy and PieFed (and Mbin, and nodeBB, etc.) would need to agree on a set of shared practices...

In short, the technology of the Threadiverse is still quite primitive in so very many ways, despite the upcoming release of Lemmy vs. 1.0. Yes defederation is a very blunt instrument, but it's all that we have been given to wield for the most part. But the alternative IMHO would be far worse, being forced into allowing bullies to thrive. The Paradox of Intolerance is ironic, but very real: allowing the intolerant to exist in your space, worse yet platforming and even promoting them, means that you yourself are intolerant. Fences between neighbors is the only hope the Threadiverse even has of surviving. Yes you are allowed to be sad at that fact, but it remains true nonetheless. Move past your sadness, to get to what must be done to thrive and move forward in a positive direction?

e.g. learn Rust and contribute to the code development of Lemmy!? Unfortunately, merely donating money is unlikely to help, as much of those funds go into the moderation and instance maintenance costs of the "highly controversial" Lemmy.ml, and the devs have refused to open a way to provide funding for the former independently of the latter. Or learn Python and contribute to development of PieFed? It likely won't help with interoperability between PieFed vs. Lemmy, and both require investments of several years, but if you want to help then there is no better way. So long as the technology remains as primitive as it is now, these kinds of blunt instruments are all that are available to us - someone would need to invest the effort to provide better.

TLDR: there are extremely good reasons why things are as they are now.

Well, if you have to personally liable for the shit a bunch of internet strangers say, you might think differently. That is one boon of being a mega-corp. You are somewhat immune to SLAPP-lawsuits and the like.

To add an annecdote, hexbear has this handy link to an image: (nsfw) https://hexbear.net/PPB

Ask yourself why a discussion platform might keep this image quick-link and you may understand why everyone defederates from them.

I can understand people staying on Reddit more than those staying on Twitter to be honest.

At least spez hasn't gone full nazi yet, or provided tools for generating pedophilia.

Both of which people seem to be perfectly fine with. So it doesn't surprise me they're fine with Reddit too.

I'm feeling the same way. I've bounced around a few places since joining. I started on midwest.social which was great for a while, but I think the instance grew more than the dev could keep up with. I started seeing connectivity issues and problems displaying content so I reluctantly migrated to .world to see what joining the largest instance would be like. The technical issues went away but I couldn't figure out why I could no longer see /c/piracy until I realized that they're a bunch of pushovers that defederated from dbzer0 based on some liability bogeyman. So I found myself on Lemmy.zip where I can police my own content and have no technical issues.

It really is pretty dead outside the main subjects. I have noone to talk about the latest episode of My Adventures with Superman. Did they now just leave the other universe with Clark dead? That sucks.

I've said this a number of times over the past couple days, but if there's an instance for mirroring subreddits, where niche subreddits that don't have an equivalent here yet basically get a carbon copy and a repost bot to stock them with relevant stuff from over there, that could fill in some of those gaps and make the fediverse a more attractive alternative.

It won't have the same level of engagement right away, but it will provide a place for that engagement to occur, and as more people start using it it will create a network effect. As things stand now, we're missing a lot of those niche communities.