I do not consent, no. I only go to work because otherwise I am threatened by homelessness.

Wait... So unless food magically appears with no labor at all, because labor isn't fun, no food is vegan?

So no food is vegan other than literal windfall fruit from a tree? Or does picking it up could as labor?

Religions are less strict

with a side of ecofascism

Thank you, that is a totally fair criticism.

Actually, wait. Wouldn't that mean that the earned income from labor that doesn't contribute to GDP should be excluded (perhaps not in its entirety, because that labor indirectly contributes)? Which means that the difference between GDP and the compensation to labor to create it is larger?

I don't work voluntarly tho, i have to work because otherwise i am gonna be homeless and i can't get food

I'll post here that I saw this / credit for this should probably go to this subway takes

Would not be vegan. Are you starting a religion?

funny :) but i came up with it independently

Put another way: no one should be obligated to participate in society, but then society should likewise have no obligations to the non-participants.

funnily enough, that is exactly what capitalism postulates. that those who don't work, don't deserve to eat. "useless eaters" and all that, my mother can (sadly) give you a long and stern lecture about that (she is very much what you would call a "conservative").

capitalism re-formulates that by saying that you need money to buy food, but to get that money, you have to work. in other words, who doesn't work, doesn't get food. that's why many people say it's cruel and inhumane because it makes people suffer who don't work. and that's exactly why we have things such as social safety nets etc. where the state gives money to people sothat they can buy basic stuff with it if they are poor. because society at large revolts against the concept of "who doesn't work, shouldn't eat". or at least that's how it is in most (civilized) countries, except of course in america people don't always see things that way.

ok so what you're describing here is that ...

• first of all, labor seems to be the constant in your worldview that everything revolves around. do you believe (or think that it's possible / desirable) that we will eventually have a fully automated luxury society?
• if yes, how would you call such a system?

secondly, it seems to me that the point that "bourgeoisie" doesn't work is a big problem to you. mind explaining why? is it because society desperately needs that 1% extra labor output? is it because of some "work is a moral must" mindset (quasi-religious)? is it for some other reason?

thirdly, it seems to me that you're defining communism socialism as essentially our current society, just that CEOs don't get huge bonuses and shareholders don't skim company profit. so, in other words, our current world minus the stock market: every company has to emit zero profit (such that no shareholders gain from it) and all the money must instead be spent on the business itself: wages to workers and resource acquirements.

did i understand that correctly? would you add anything? do you think that this setup is already feasible in today's legal framework through worker-owned businesses? ("co-ops" and what they're called)

thanks :)

Eh, it impacts my physical body, those hormones exist. How about extrinsic awards, as opposed to intrinsic awards?

why so? what makes humans non-animals?

also what kind of view is this? where is the meaning in that?

well, the question is whether you enjoy the act of picking up a fruit and eating it, i guess. like, even if a full platter suddenly appears in front of you, you still have to shove the mass into your mouth. do you enjoy doing that? if not, then why do you eat?

I find hunting, fishing, raising livestock, and gardening quite rewarding. Don't make the first ones vegan.

But plenty of people, per OP, don't "like" anything other than shoving food into their mouths, and sleeping.

This is such a stupid baby child perspective. Bitch, please, calories cost work. That's literally thermodynamics. Get over your erudite fantasies of fully automated luxury (gay optional) (space optional) communism being now. It's not now.

Don't forget starvation, disease and untimely death.

yeah ok, i didn't mean to belittle you by explaining convergence and such, it's just that i wasn't sure what level of math education you got.

i never said that other people find all work unpleasant to do. there are many people who do a whole lot of activities voluntarily. (just look at how many people go to the gym, etc.)

But plenty of people, per OP, don’t “like” anything other than shoving food into their mouths, and sleeping.

so no, that's not what i meant.

No humans in zoo exhibits

u serious? that's your reasoning? that's all?

Sorry maybe I overreacted, it just felt condescending, no hard feelings I hope

no, I'm a marxist and leninist, not a social democrat

funnily enough, that is exactly what capitalism postulates.

Well yes and no. I guess it comes down to how you define participation in society. Capitalism only accepts production of commodities, whereas I meant it in a more broad sense. E.g. non-monetized hobbies are classified as entirely consumptive behaviors by capitalist societies, but if you look at the benefits conveyed by an open-source, volunteer project like lemmy you quickly see how much of a misclassification that is.

Even not in the extreme there are broad misclassifications under capitalism. You bring up the example of those of us on welfare; capitalists might agree with you that they are non-participants, whereas I don't think it's illogical to claim that services like raising children or advocating for change or community-building or maintaining a home or even just providing emotional support are ways that people contribute to and participate in society. I'd even go so far as to boldly claim that welfare is simply the way the bourgeois convey wages to such people, and then they have the gall to propagandize it as charity to make themselves look better, while simultaneously vilifying this subset of the working class

Not all of us ahem bourgeoisie ahem

I meant moreso that it compels us outside of the structure of a society, which also precludes any social classes. One cannot be bourgeois if one does not live amongst others whom they can subjugate.

of course, however what makes a societies differ is exactly what gets filled in to the “…”

Ha! I was trying to refer to the idiom without being verbose, not leaving those blanks as variables.

I guess my take is that what determines a society is more how "ability" and "need" are defines, that way the social structure is not oversimplified to a single one-sided relationship. E.g. a feudalist would claim the serfs need protection from thieves and bandits, and a lord has the ability to provide such protection; the lord, conversely, needs grain and the serfs have the ability to farm it

The problem I have with "voluntary" is that someone can still fall into the category of being exploited, either willingly or without their knowledge, and still happily and voluntarily participate in an unjust relationship

and this is what i don't get. if somebody likes being exploited, then why not let them?

I didn't mean to be curt with my other reply I hope it didn't come across that way, I just don't know what you mean by most of your questions. So I will answer as best as I understand them

first of all, labor seems to be the constant in your worldview that everything revolves around. do you believe (or think that it’s possible / desirable) that we will eventually have a fully automated luxury society?

The process by which we produce the things that keep us alive, how we work, define how we relate to one another and how society is structured. The relation between slave and slavemaster, serf and lord, employee and employer are fundamentally different and shape all of society. Society at it's core is defined by it's mode of production. In that sense "labor" is indeed what my worldview revolves around, but I wouldn't say it's a constant. How we labor and what we do constantly changes. Whether we will eventually have a "fully automated luxury society", I don't know. Luxury is having a very comfortable life (relative to others) and what we consider comfortable and how we enjoy things is again defined by society around us so I'd say no, or it depends on what you compare luxury with since it's a relative term.

We already live in a luxury society compared to even 100 years ago. Even once we are able to do it without oppressing the global south I don't think our quality of life would significantly diminish. The reason we don't consider having comfortable transportation, (theoretically) good healthcare, the sheer wealth of information we can access in instant with a rectangle we carry around or our multi-roomed homes with running hot water, a fridge, washing machine and dishwasher a luxury is because everyone has them. To the average laborer from 100 years ago however these things would surely look like a "fully automated luxury society". Imagine being able to access a whole library from a single portable device and just print whatever you want?? 🤯

Fully automated is also too nebulous a term for me, presumably we will still cook our own food, raise our own kids what I would consider inevitable is how we relate to our labor and how we perceive it. For instance people might do gardening where they raise crops as a fun neighborhood activity, where everyone is welcome to pluck the crop as they need or wish. This is for instance very common in Viet Nam. Farming communes were already wide-spread before sanctions and capital reimposing itself on society forced them to introduce companies again.

secondly, it seems to me that the point that “bourgeoisie” doesn’t work is a big problem to you.

It's not so much that the bourgeoisie doesn't work. It's that they are parasitic on others labor. They take without consent. That's my main issue. "From each according to their ability..." is not a call to make everyone work as much as possible but rather a call to share what we can.

thirdly, it seems to me that you’re defining communism socialism as essentially our current society, just that CEOs don’t get huge bonuses and shareholders don’t skim company profit. so, in other words, our current world minus the stock market: every company has to emit zero profit (such that no shareholders gain from it) and all the money must instead be spent on the business itself: wages to workers and resource acquirements.

Absolutely not, communism is a classless society, socialism is the intermittent period. Shareholders or other forms of passive income are antithetical to that.

This comment got a bit away from me lol, I just love talking about marxism too much I guess 😁 Please do tell me if it's just too long for you to read or doesnt make sense or whatever.

A society is defined by how it produces and survives. When we talk about an "agrarian society" or "nomad society", "hunter gatherers" etc. we talk about how a group of people produced food. When we talk about slave or feudal or capitalist society we talk about the relationships that people enter into in order to produce. It is not possible to work, or be compelled to work outside of society. Until we have socialism nothing compels us to work outside of social classes. I wouldn't be working if my bourgeois didn't compel me to. "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles."

The great leaps in society have all been defined by changes in how we produce which compelled us to reorganise ourselves. Once we learned to domesticate wheat we stopped wandering and settled. We learned to make stone, bronze, iron tools and every time society was restructured. The steam engine revolutionized (literally!) our whole society since suddenly the work had to be divided into smaller parts. No longer could one laborer own all the tools required for their work themselves, they had become too expensive. The spinstress on the farm could no longer compete with the machines and so people began migrating to the cities since that is where the work was. This gave rise to the merchant class who became more powerful the more they gained control over the means of production until they overthrew feudal society for a more liberal approach at organising production. But as the wealth and control is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, as the petite bourgeois "middle class" shrinks and is thrown into the proletariat we will soon have to reorganise our society again. Especially since the global south is starting to band together and awakens as to where their oppression comes from. What will we do without our cheap labor?

"One cannot be bourgeois if one does not live amongst others whom they can subjugate" indeed! Now you're thinking in dialectics 😁 We define social classes in terms of eachother and liberation of one is done by abolishing the other. There are no slaves if there are no slaveowners which is why people fought the slaveowners in order to free the slaves. No serfs where there is no nobility and no proletariat (employees) where there are no employers (bourgeoisie).

Ha! I was trying to refer to the idiom without being verbose, not leaving those blanks as variables.

My point was that you took out the most salient part of that quote. That communism is defined not by social classes but by "ability" and "need" is its defining characteristic. Because at the moment people are not getting what they "need" but rather what they "earn" which in the best of cases matches up, but does not always (or indeed not often, if we look at most capitalist societies currently in existence). And what they "earn" is defined by the contract they entered into with their employers. This means that the laborer wants to maximise what they sell their labor power for, whereas the employer wants to minimise what they buy the labor power with. This is what is called a contradiction in dialectics.

These contradictions are how we define social classes and the resolvement of these contradictions (their "synthesis") is what we are most interested in. The merchant class and the feudal class for instance were marked by the contradiction that the merchants wanted to be able to sell to whomever they pleased (they wanted a free market), whereas the feudal class wanted to amass without having to buy. Whoever was under their jurisdiction had to give them a share, was taxed simply for being within their jurisdiction. Which differs from taxes today which have to justified by how they are necessary for the survival of the government and the state. The lords didn't need such a justification, "my land my rules". This contradiction came to a head and got resolved by the abolishment of the feudal class (or at least by bringing it to heel and under the rule of the bourgeoisie). The synthesis of feudal society was a capitalist one.

I guess my take is that what determines a society is more how “ability” and “need” are defines, that way the social structure is not oversimplified to a single one-sided relationship.

Yes! Welcome to dialectics!! It is indeed not a one-sided relationship! The employer needs our work and we need access to the means of production! This mutual need is how capitalism operates.

Good question. I have my own opinions, but I'd be more interested in hearing what reasons you can come up with (and any counterarguments you have to them), so I'm gonna challenge you to do that while slogging through all my disorganized brain droppings.

My biggest issue with "let people be exploited if they want" is that it doesn't exist in a vacuum. If the world was two people, one who seeks to exploit and the other who seeks to be exploited, then I don't really care; in our world, it's a bad basis for society to allow for injustice simply because people can be convinced to want it.

In such a world, the exploiters (whether individuals or organizations) would seek to control whatever systems of education, media, and ideology they could to convince as many people as possible that being exploited is good for them. This would allow for them to centralize power, and that power would enforce a class divide; anyone who didn't exploit others would be relegated to being one of the exploited class, anyone who willingly exploited others but didn't work to convert more into "wanting to be exploited" would never amass as much power as those that do.

Besides the perverse incentives, that division would create a power imbalance that attracts (into the positions of authority) individuals and groups who are both indoctrinated into the system, and more efficient at subjugating others. That means there is a filter naturally built into any such system that selects for people who view others more as statistics and resources than people with inherent value, and are skilled at both convincing them to want exploitation and exploiting them.

Being the real world, people will not be perfect, so any lack of skill in one domain will require compensation in the other. If someone cannot be convinced to be exploited willingly, the authority will need to find other ways of enforcing exploitation.

Lifeforms being how they are, not all of them will be brainwashable; that means oppression will be necessary, as dissent is a threat to the amount of power an authority has amassed and imposes "soft" limits on how much power can be amassed—that is, limitations that can be overcome with enough effort (as opposed to physical limitations like the total amount of living beings). And any threat to the power imbalance is a threat to the system itself, a threat to the society.

We have thus specified a system that selects for abusers and oppressors in positions of power, without once having to speculate that unjust and cruel people would begin in such positions.

Now one might claim I'm just using a slippery-slope fallacy, that we might be able to specify such a society that accounts for the aforementioned flaws, and implements some sort of system of checks-and-balances to keep from the balance shifting so egregiously. And to that, I want to point out how any such system constitutes an aforementioned "soft" limit on power, but does not remove the incentives at the core of the system.

Meanwhile, in a just society, anyone who wants to be exploited and anyone who wants to exploit are given the knowledge and resources necessary to overcome such primal desires. Maybe they are educated, or maybe given safely contained environments—e.g. VR, or LARP, or BDSM—to exercise their desires without negatively impacting others/society.

I would also challenge the assumption that there is some naturally-arising desire to be exploited. Put another way: assuming a perfectly just society, whence comes the desire to be exploited?

A very compelling narrative, thank you for sharing! Based on my limited understanding of history and economics and sociology, it feels true. But I'm no expert :)

The one point that I don't really understand is:

It is not possible to work, or be compelled to work outside of society. Until we have socialism nothing compels us to work outside of social classes. I wouldn’t be working if my bourgeois didn’t compel me to.

This doesn't make sense to me. My functional definition is that work is just expending energy to transition something from one state into another. Moving a boulder up a hill is still work, regardless of motivations of the actor. How are you defining "work"?

You can read more about it in "socialism: utopian and scientific" by engels an eye-opening book to me. Really what made me fall in love with marxism. There's also a really cool section about the "mark" at the end which isn't that relevant to know really but I found it very interesting nonetheless. It's a short book but well worth the read.

As for "work" I guess you can go with the physical definition of it, however since we are talking about society i went with a more common understanding of work as in energy spent to produce value. Making that concrete however gets us of course into the weeds of what value is, differences between use-value and exchange-value. So I just tried to sneak it past you 😅

It's not eco fascism it's eco totalitarian communism okay

Yes

oh ok so ecofascism