By your description 99% of SciFi is fantasy. You're just cherrypicking what you feel is "pure" sci-fi and what isn't.

The Expanse, The Culture novels, Foundation, etc... is just fantasy by your description. I could use your rules to pick apart most sci-fi novels and explain how they are just fantasy.

A little piece of life advice, unless you're in chemistry or metallurgy, purity tests always make you the bad guy.

The expanse is scifi, it uses believable extensions of our knowledge, they still have thrust mass, they still have deceleration. Thats probably one of the best examples to use as as scifi actually.

Haven’t consumed the culture.

And if you’ve read Foundations by Asimov and his other books, it’s all explained how the weirdness is an extension of current knowledge (60 years ago). Asimov created the genre, and he’s written nothing that’s fantasy.

None of those use handwaving to explain the “technology”.

Unlike DCC, unlike Star Wars, unlike Star Trek, unlike MCU, etc.

Read Asimovs definitions on what the difference between fantasy and scifi, he’s the one that pioneered the genre and was editor on countless magazines and other written media.

Magic alien space goo, psychics, etc...

Your distinctions are arbitrary and purely a function of how you feel about certain properties.

Enjoy your gatekeeping purity tests, I hope they bring you comfort.

They aren’t, they are the foundational and distinguishing differences between the scifi and fantasy genres.

Fantasy doesn’t explain the “magic” or the “tech” it’s all handwaved and is just there as part of the story.

Scifi on the other hand, the technology is the foundation of the story, and the rest is built off of that.

Both can use parts of each other, but how the story is built is which dictates which is the primary category it should be in.

If you can’t understand something, and someone is trying to explain it, does that make them gatekeeping?

So using those non arbitrary definitions, it’s pretty easy to see DCC is fantasy, along with Star Trek and wars

Foundation, expanse, Robots, they all fall into the other.

As a writer of sci-fi/fantasy stories, this level of willful ignorance makes me laugh.

What are the differences than?

These are the differences according to multiple veterans (literary the OG inventors of them…) of Sci fi and Fantasy writing. As well as definitions available on every library as well as Wikipedia and other available sources. We are just supposed to take your word over the proven professionals?

What are your qualifications other than self pronounced author? Usually when someone just interjects that they are lawyer, or a doctor, or other professional, without providing a detailed response, is just making stuff up.

Because the difference surely isn’t “it has spaceships”, that’s a gross oversimplification.

I think rather we need to go back and have you explain where you got these definitions because I've read a great many books of both genres and your definitions don't fit most of them.

Fantasy doesn’t explain the “magic” or the “tech” it’s all handwaved and is just there as part of the story.

Lots of fantasy magic systems have explanations. They just tend to be fantastical explanations.

Scifi on the other hand, the technology is the foundation of the story, and the rest is built off of that.

You count Star Trek as fantasy despite it fitting this description to a tee. Everything about the setting and the stories they tell are predicated on their living in a technologically advanced society. Replicators, transporters, warp drives, holodecks, self-aware AI, all technologies that make Star Trek possible.

Both can use parts of each other, but how the story is built is which dictates which is the primary category it should be in.

Who says it needs to be put in a single primary category? Why can't we have a sci-fi/fantasy genre in and of itself?

Basically, before you ask for my qualifications, I'm gonna need you to start making a single lick of sense in the first place.

Using only excerpts from the books themselves. Explain to me how the proto molecule works without one iota of handwaiving.

Magic, no how wonderfully explained, is not an extension of our universe.

I told you my sources?

You’re given the oversimplified modern version for mass appeal. That’s not how libraries and other places categorize the books.

We do have that genre? Science fantasy, that was covered already… you really aren’t given your ale dmucj merit here.

That’s the combining with the fantasy genre, but everything in the slow and otherwise WAS explained with physics. Not well in the show, but the books yeah.

You’re also ignoring the key basis of the story being the technology and other parts. That’s not gonna help you comprehend it.

Spoiler review: This series is "science" fiction with no emphasis on actual science. It's about as genuine science fiction as Anne Rice's vampire and Atlantis books. The books should be labeled YA. It's Twilight for video game fans, more in the recent trend of books for people who don't read books.

If you want well written science fiction pick up something from Neal Stephenson. If you want fantasy go with Brandon Sanderson.

Sorry to hurt folks feelings, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who had this series enthusiastically recommended and bought it without knowing the truth.

You’re given the oversimplified modern version for mass appeal. That’s not how libraries and other places categorize the books.

Then they should get with the times, which do change.

We do have that genre? Science fantasy, that was covered already…

No, that's science fantasy, not sci-fi/fantasy. The image you posted is just sci-fi. You're not making whatever point you think you're making.

you really aren’t given your ale dmucj merit here.

Well thank goodness for that!

You're hopeless

And insult the creators of the genres by making their craft out to be “pew pew lasers and spaceships?”, there’s a reason why the genres were created, if we just want to make things as simple as easy as possible, just call everything fiction, no need to describe it more. I’m sure you can understand how that’s a terrible idea…?
Why even have the genres, if you’re just gonna ignore them anyways?

Sure, let’s let everything be meaningless so nothing matters, that’s what you want with the world?

There’s also reasons why there is standards and they don’t just let anyone publish stories in magazines and other established prints. Editors exist so they can separate the chaff from the wheat. If you’re just gonna ignore these standards. It shouldn’t be a shock when you’re rejected.

You provided nothing to show you have any merit to decide what is and isn’t right, the fact that you’re parading around you’re an author means nothing. Especially if you don’t respect the established covenants of writing particular genres.

If you self publish, of course you can just incorrectly refer to your stuff as whatever you want, especially so it just sells.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t force it to drink.

If you’re gonna ignore established standards, and misinterpret what I’m saying because you think you’re correct, you aren’t gonna learn anything from that place of ignorance.

In Star Trek, nothing is explained, it’s all handwaved and is just there as backround to the stories. You said it with your own words “the setting” that’s not the story or the backround of the universe now is it? You contradict yourself in your own point. Just because there is spaceships doesn’t mean it’s scifi, please provide an actual source that supports this exact statement. No one should take you for your word, especially when there is now a posted source that contradicts your statements.

That’s why it’s fantasy. Yes advanced technology exists, but how did they get there from where we are? If you need to suspend belief, it becomes fantasy instead of sci fi

I like their description though, it is just space elves and Klingons.

It just sounds like you self publish and call your stuff whatever you think will sell. Why should we listen to you? There’s sources and credible authors who support here views. What are your credentials, if it’s self published, you’re nothing more than a troll.

To give additional options, because Stephenson and Sanderson aren't everyone's cups of tea (producing insanely large tomes like Reamde, Cryptonomicon, and the Way of Kings), you may also consider the following, which are either hard scifi (requires few, if any, scientific discoveries we currently lack), speculative SciFi (requires one or two unexplained leaps of scientific advancement, but thoroughly explores the mechanics and consequences thereof), or speculative fantasy (any magic system is internally consistent, operates in particular ways, and the interactions between them are explored)

1. Adrian Tchaikovsky, creator of the most - realistic alien species in literature: Children of Time Series (Spec. SciFi (but only barely), Tyrant Philosophers Series (Spec. Fantasy), and an insane number of standalone stories among the three genres listed above, such as Alien Clay, Shroud, and And Put Away Childish Things
2. Dennis E. Taylor, for those with crippling reference-itis and enough of a science background to want the author to regularly presume the reader's knowledge of plate tectonics and special relativity: Bobiverse Series (Spec. SciFi, but only because of "subspace" and optoelectronics), Outland Series (Spec. SciFi, because the portal's function is never explained)
3. Andy Weir, who makes every book a high-school science class (in the best way) with a plot: The Martian & Project Hail Mary (Both Hard SciFi, and I'll fight anyone who tries to claim that the astrophage makes PHM speculative), also, several short stories, including The Egg (Spec. Fantasy) and James Moriarty, Consulting Criminal (Historical Fiction/Mystery)
4. David Mitchell, who is like if James Michener wrote historical fantasy: Cloud Atlas (Historical/Speculative Fiction), The Thousand Autumns of Jacob de Zoet, the Bone Clocks, & Utopia Avenue (all Historical Fiction with Minor Fantasy Elements)

If you want something more in line with YA, but with hard magic systems, consider "The Will of The Many", by James Islington, or "Sufficiently Advanced Magic" by Andrew Rowe.

In Star Trek, nothing is explained

Yes it is. It's not always explained well, and it doesn't always make sense, but the key technologies of the setting such as transporters, replicator, and warp drives all have very reasonable explanations for how they work. This argument makes no sense on its face.

How is that technology fundamental to the story? It’s not an either or thing like you’re treating it.

It just existing is not enough, just like magic being explained (in your other comment) doesn’t suddenly make it scifi. It’s how it affects the story, it’s not scifi if it’s just the setting.

This isn’t some weird take, it’s literally the cornerstones of what defines scifi. Scifi relys on its foundation of science and our understanding to tell stories about futuristic human concepts. Please provide anything to the contrary, the balls completely in your court. Why does this need to be asked twice? Is it something that you can’t do…? Because you’re making shit up…? From your other comments I know you’re capable of quoting comments in your reply. Why ignore this one?

You ask for sources but can’t provide your own?

How is that technology fundamental to the story?

....Have you seen Star Trek before? Like, ever? Any of it? They literally made an entire show out of the question of "how did they explore before they got this tech, and how did they get it?"

This conversation is over.

Yes I’ve watched Star Trek, that’s why I can discuss that what your saying isn’t true and you’re making it up.

What are your sources…?

For someone demanding them from someone, you’re surely are ignoring providing your own. Can’t discuss something in good faith? Just throw out you’re a professional and balk when asked to reciprocate? There’s a term for this, trolling.

And retconning stuff is obviously horseshit, that shouldn’t need to be explained. How many stories and media came out before they thought of that topic? And it’s not even fundamental to the story, or it would have been at the start of the creation of the story. You can’t explain something in the last story… and go… tadaaaaaaa.

So please, kindly provide some sources, or get lost, you’ve no credibility, and are losing it with each response.

A few stories by a few authors that touch on being scifi, doesn’t make the whole series that, this seriously isn’t what you’re suggesting are you? So if they made a horror, Star Trek is wholly a horror series now? Because that’s the logic you are applying wholesale here.

I thought of a way to dumb it down. I’ll give you two excerpts, one is how fantasy would explain something, and the other scifi. I’m going out of my way to do this, so I would appreciate some sources okay?

Fantasy.

Alberto woke up, he turned the light on and started his coffee, the news came on the vidscreen.

Scifi.

Alberto woke up and stretched his arm, in doing so it activated the electromagnetism in his arm, his species has this unique trait. As he gets up and walks through the door, the coffee machine had already gotten the wake up from the lights being turned on and was pouring itself. As he stared out through the panoramic window, it suddenly shifted to a breaking news bulletin.

Please tell me you can tell how one is hand waving, and the other isn’t. The first one, the technology isn’t there, maybe it might pop up later as an explanation. The second, the technology is being explained to build the story and flesh it out. Because that’s what the story is going to be mainly about.

Scifi has a hard time, because they need to waste a lot of words describing how mundane things aren’t so mundane. Fantasy gets this pass.

StarTrek literally has a term for its handwaving, technobabble. If you’re using technobabble, it’s not scifi, that’s textbook handwaving.

So… no…? You don’t have the decency to provide sources yet you just demand them from other people?

You’re a real piece of work, you are self published aren’t you? And you’re presenting yourself as a professional? There’s a term for you people in real life, it’s called a hack. Can’t cut it in the real world where things matter and there’s standards, so you just do what you want and make everyone else look bad. Does that actually make you feel better about yourself?

Enjoy being a troll and pretending you are the professional you aren’t!

Anyone saying that DCC is not sci-fi is wrong. I'll assume you haven't read it. The ENTIRE STORY is about an Alien syndicate causing the apocalypse on Earth to force humans to play what is essentially a real life video game. It's run by aliens, and hyper advanced AI. It's full of real functional science portals. The fantasy elements of the book are artifice for the game. This is some pretty weird gatekeeping. I think people are getting sci-fi and hard sci-fi confused. Just chill out. There is no lack of Sci-Fi in this world, and if you haven't read DCC you are doing yourself a disservice.

This is a dumb take.

Are you replying to the person you meant to?

I’m putting this at top level. It’s for anyone engaging in this silly argument.

Okay, works for me. I was the OP who posted my review of DCC, and the one who said I feel there's a spectrum between Fantasy and SF, not a hard line, and that DCC in my opinion is slightly left of center.

At the end of the day viewing DCC as fantasy is perfectly fine, and not invalid, just wanted to address the silliness that it wasn't sci-fi.

Book 3 can be a bit of a slog if you get wrapped up in trying to decipher the Iron Tangle. The point is that the entire thing runs on vibes, not hard rules. The point is to confuse the reader right alongside the crawlers. But lots of readers ended up struggling as a result, because they wanted to figure out the specific rules of the floor. Anyone who claims to have figured out how it works has either missed a rule or made up some of their own.

Books 4 and 5 are where the series truly hits its stride. I’d say 7 is probably my favorite. 8 was probably the worst so far, mostly because it spends a lot of time setting up potential plot hooks for later. But that also leaves lots of potential room for growth with later books.

There is a running joke among the fanbase that the cat (Princess Donut) is actually the main character, and Carl is just along for the ride. There’s a reason Carl’s catchphrase quickly becomes “God damn it Donut!”

Aside from that, there is also Prepotente, a goat who had the same Enlightenment thing happen to him. He isn’t introduced until several books into the series, (he is part of a different dungeon party, an entire flock of goats being led through the dungeon by his former goatherd) and he is treated like a crawler just like Donut is.

There is plenty of death and destruction, to be clear. It’s a game show designed to kill the contestants. Almost as if Squid Game were being run like a futuristic and very over-the-top Legends Of The Hidden Temple/Takeshi’s Castle. The vast majority of animal-related violence is things like NPC dungeon monsters.

Good to hear the series stays worthwhile.