And yet voter turnout is consistently low.

You'll never get good faith engagement with ml so all you can do is try to piss em off and waste their time.

And then Biden took office and he and his DOJ had the full Epstein files AND Project 2025 was openly published and explained and promoted AND Biden said "we have to stop these people" and then did what? That's correct. He did nothing. He had literal documentation that DJT committed wanton infanticide and rape and human trafficking but did nothing. Nothing. Biden did nothing with the Epstein files while Harris told immigrants not to come to the US because we were absolutely going to continue torturing them at the border and nothing was gonna stop them, just like nothing was going to stop the Israeli genocide and the American participation in it.

No, sorry. The Democrats are not "less fascist" just like the Good Cop is still a cop.

The Ds aren't going to save Ukraine either. The parties don't make military decisions, the military does and the parties ratify it. That's why Obama continued Bush 2's projects, including invading Libya, which was on Bush's list but he never got to it. Don't forget Obama refused to give Ukraine any weapons and declared Venezuela a national security threat after Bush 2 tried to coup Chavez. Trump was the first president to approve arms transfers to Ukraine. I know it's confusing because you think the parties are "evil" and "almost good" but they aren't, they are both fascist imperialists and it's why this all happens this way.

It's also why the Obama administration expanded ICE and DHS and then deported 3M people with Tom Homan at the helm, just like Trump used all the Obama-era policies and even appointed Tom Homan himself to run deportations (though Trump hasn't yet caught up to Obama's numbers).

You're falling for the manipulation. You somehow believe that the con artist saying "that guy has a knife, I'll protect you, just give me your wallet" even after that con artist walked away and did NOTHING about the guy with the knife.

The evidence is clear. Both parties are maintainers of the world fascist empire, and one party appeals to the voters with fear of "the other" and the other party appears to the voters with the fear of "being bad people".

Because voters have figured out that voting doesn't fucking matter. Once you realize that a) the country has always been run by a single fascist bloc b) with multiple fascist factions fighting for control and c) fronted by two PR firms with subsidiary PR firms that drive psychological manipulation of voters into believing that d) this time it really is the most important election in history and e) voting will fix it and f) if you vote correctly then the fascists you put in power will stop being fascist and g) actually make structural change - once that becomes obvious, voting is just not something people are motivated to do. And to be clear even people like me who believe all those things vote in vast numbers because it is a ritualized symbol and it has implications in social situations and dynamics. And even still huge numbers of people just don't vote, which means massive numbers of people understand that the system is fully irredeemable.

Plenty of Dems run on election reform to enable third party viability. Gotta vote in the primaries.

Hello three day old account trying to dissuade voter turnout! If progressives and leftists voted in primaries we'd have a progressive leftist Democratic party, but progressives and leftists don't vote for the most part. But you know that since you're not here in good faith anyway. The phrase "typical democrat arrogance" gives you away, gotta stop using your fox news terms MAGAt.

You mean the same Biden that did more drilling for oil than Trump did? The same Biden that increased funding the the largest non-country polluting organization in the world?

What a hero! 🙄

Yeah but you still gotta vote.

C- is drastically better than the Dems environmental policies and practices. They were absolutely F

Well yeah, obviously bullies only bully the nerds because the Anti-Bully Club is so anti-bully. If the Anti-Bully Club just disbands instead of defending nerds, then the bullies will have no reason to keep bullying the nerds! Duhhh! (/s)

Bernie led that charge at the last minute, and it still ignored every other demand they had. Notably, the ones that would have made train derailments far less likely.

The way I see it, it's more like they're ok with it as long as the knife is pointed at someone else. Fascism is imperialism brought home. All that imperialism has been happening non-stop and even at home, marginalized groups have been subject to all sorts of terrible things.

They'll call that less bad because it doesn't affect them yet. And in the narrowest sense I guess they are technically correct exactly in the short term. But 1) It's not better for those other people. 2) They don't see how one inevitably leads to the other. The same tools they built to stop "our enemies abroad" can and are used to suppress dissent at home.

If a Dem ran that as a fucking bare minimum promised to reign in the military, police, and surveillance states and curb executive power, I'd be more sympathetic to the argument for harm reduction even if they didn't agree with me on other things. But if they're just going to keep enabling all of this, at best the only "harm reduction" happening is some people getting to ignore the suffering until next election.

It's a tankie, they're as bad as MAGA.

You're arguing with a russian propaganda bot, their whole account is bad faith shit.

And yet the USA's production and consumption based emissions decreased over his tenure. Seems like replacing foreign fuel shipped from across the world with domestic fuel is a climate win, but that doesn't let you own the libz...

As we all know, if you just keep telling people to vote, eventually they'll just be like "Yeah! I'm gonna take off work from the job that doesn't give me time off, go find a polling place, which isn't close and crowded because the state doesn't run enough polling places, then try to go there in a town without public transportation! Why didn't I think of this sooner?" Then they get there and find out that most of the local elections are uncontested and the federal ones have only a choice between no climate policy and climate policy which is insufficient but delays the necessary work until it's too late. Then after begrudgingly voting, they realize that their districts are so gerrymandered their vote basically didn't count anyway.

Nope, no need to change anything, we just need to keep telling people to go vote. It hasn't worked yet, but... uh....................................

If you're actually an anarchist you're not even part of the conversation so what the fuck are you doing here? Go do anarchy you fucking larper.

Non voters aren't motivated to vote, they're non voters, why would anyone cater to a group that intentionally throws away any influence they could have?

You might get someone progressive on the ballot if progressives voted in the fuckin primaries but they don't.

The green party is bankrolled by Russia, it exists exclusively as a spoiler for the democrats to trick the average low information voter.

US Americans are mostly fuck-ignorant, half of us are functionally illiterate, nevermind media or political literacy. Just look at this thread.

You're right Zohran Mamdani didn't win NYC mayor. Fuck off bad faith troll. Who you working for?

Oh fuck you're an ml bot. Not worth engaging with. Buhbye MAGAtankie shitbird.

Instead of? You know it's both, right? On public forums, you're talking to voters so the proper action is encouraging their vote. When you make demands of those in power, you should be writing them directly, or congregating with others in protests that they'll actually see.

What possible benefit do you get from making demands of people in power in the places they aren't?

I think the current problem is that the politicians who believe in implementing them don't have the numbers to actually do so, and voter apathy gets in the way of achieving those numbers. There's been a ton of climate policy over the years, it's just that for the last couple decades the party that pretends climate change doesn't exist has been stonewalling climate policy because it would hurt corporate profits.

LOL

Sewer socialists have a long history of winning in the USA, and also of being outmaneuvered entirely by the fascists in both parties, purged, and having nearly all of their progress completely undone.

Maybe the vote is compromised.

Ok so you lose then.

Or..... it's because most people see that both parties are too similar for it to matter. Both of the two big ones pretty openly don't give a shit about climate change

The people in power don't need to be informed more about what people want. They already know, they just don't care.

Yes, the majority of emissions reduced during the 8 years under Obama were because fracking drove down the cost of natural gas below the cost of coal. The market drove a reduction in a coal usage in favor of fracked natural gas. But of course, that's what happens when the only thing you control for is the one variable that makes headlines.

Speaking of which, during the first 4 years of Obama's fracking boom, no one was measuring the leaks, and leaks from natural gas wells are methane, which traps 8,600% of the energy that CO2 does. They didn't even start trying to fix this until 2016, and of course those fixes were easily rolled back by Trump, because the Ds can always expand the harm, but they can't ever seem to contain it.

at best the only “harm reduction” happening is some people getting to ignore the suffering until next election

This exactly.

if they’re just going to keep enabling all of this

It's beyond enabling. They are architecting it, expanding it, normalizing it, and selling it.

It's the greatest strategy oil companies ever devised. Well that and funding the Sierra Club to be anti-nuclear.

Most people don't look past their pet issues, which makes it easy to mistakenly perceive both parties as too similar for it to matter. Or that every politician in a party is an identical robot who mirrors everything about their party. Oversimplification is a great tool for quick, superficial, low-quality judgements about items in your newsfeed, but not a great one for real decisions.

Are green promising to give billions to Russia to help them invading ukraine? Because both parties did give billions to Israel to exterminate Palestinians. At the end of the day you support a one party system like china have

Except Trump is implementing his platform, he's trying to sell off public land, destroy forests, and he's already gutted the EPA and many renewable energy programs.

So you can make up any excuse you want, anyone who cares about the environment and sat out 2024 is responsible for the backslide.

Oh so we're supposed to pretend that climate voters are so stupid they don't understand that Republicans are bad for the environment?

Hello three day old account

I've been on Lemmy for longer than your account has existed, account age doesn't mean anything.

trying to dissuade voter turnout

No I'm not. You're just reading what you want to read.

If progressives and leftists voted in primaries we'd have a progressive leftist Democratic party, but progressives and leftists don't vote for the most part.

Complete nonsense.

But you know that since you're not here in good faith anyway.

That's rich coming from you with this complete stinker of a comment.

The phrase "typical democrat arrogance" gives you away, gotta stop using your fox news terms MAGAt.

lol pure desperation.

It's partially true that most people don't look past their pet issues, but its not a mistake to percieive both marjor parties as too similar for it to matter. They both run very similar policies, and even the ones they pretend to disagree on, they end up reinforcing for each other. They've both had the power to easily do what their voters want, but dont.

What’s not cute, is how there are people fucking stupid enough to not understand the simple concept that when your opponent is a anti-environmental fascist-

YOU VOTE AGAINST THE ANTI-ENVIRONMENTAL FASCIST.

It can’t get any easier, yet you people STILL don’t seem to understand it. Let me put it another way:

When you have cancer- YOU TAKE THE CHEMO. You live to fight anther day. You don’t say,

“Yeah, no. Chemo sucks. I don’t want to get sick, so, let the cancer take me.” This is PURE ignorance.

Nobody is defending Trump here

It blows my mind that these people just won’t even try to understand such a simple concept. Their entitlement, alongside their little purity test cost us not only our democracy, but is RAPIDLY forwarding the environmental damage they pretend to stand against.

It’s mind-numbing dumbassery.

Your point was well said, but it will sadly fall on deaf ears. They don’t want to be told the right way to do things, they want to be told the conveinient way to do things. The way that makes them look good. The way that doesn’t require an effort-

….the way that doesn’t involve sacrifice.

No, you're supposed to understand that people will be more motivated to vote if you appeal to them based on the policies they care about and follow through, instead of offering nothing beyond, "not the other guy."

Your inability to make the bare minimum effort necessary to stand in front of fascism seems to have also allowed you to not know or care what the outcome was-

Since you seem to like simplicity so much,..

How about you stop pretending any of this matters to you since you have proven via your conscience choice you made to not bother yourself with it.

Simple as…..

The person you are responding to has a history of not knowing shit about what they take about.

That’s not Americans. There’s a fuck ton of psyop propaganda here.

bOtH siDeS! riTE?!?!!

Take the psyop bullshit elsewhwere, Ivan.

The green party doesn’t fucking exist three and a half years out of every four. Don’t even try this bullshit.

Unsurprised you're from .ml with that level of ignorance.