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Humans' behavior about LLMs is the same as animals with a mirror: they believe there is "another" in there. It's just their reflexion
Post Reply RetroFed Forum Forum Index » Showerthoughts
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AuthorMessage
LurkingLuddite piefed.social LurkingLuddite@piefed.social
Joined: 2026-02-04
#52 · Quote Reply

ELIZA effect
10
JcbAzPx lemmy.world JcbAzPx@lemmy.world
Joined: 2023-07-06
#53 · Quote Reply
Why is Lemmy so Racist? wrote:
Except when you leave several LLMs able to communicate with one another they will, on their own, with no instructions, including creating their own unique social norms. https://neurosciencenews.com/ai-llm-social-norms-28928/

That's basically a very advanced flea circus.
2
Why is Lemmy so Racist? lemmy.world Abyssian@lemmy.world
Joined: 2026-02-13
#54 · Quote Reply
SaharaMaleikuhm wrote:
No.

The article is summarizing a research paper, which it links to. Neuroscience News isn't a conspiracy rag.
2
Why is Lemmy so Racist? lemmy.world Abyssian@lemmy.world
Joined: 2026-02-13
#55 · Quote Reply
certified_expert wrote:
This is nothing else than the reflexion I am talking about. It is not a reflexion of you, the person chatting with the bot, but an "average" reflexion of what humanity has expressed in the data llms have been trained on. If a mirror is placed in front of another mirror, the "infinite tunnel" only exists in the mind of the observer.

Neuroscience News isn't a conspiracy rag. It's an article summarizing a research paper, which they link to. So many of you don't bother to read actual research and instead repeat whatever you've seen online about how things work. More parrot than the AI.
3
mriormro lemmy.zip mriormro@lemmy.zip
Joined: 2025-08-30
#56 · Quote Reply

I,too, like pulling random shit from my ass.
9
Ironfacebuster lemmy.world Ironfacebuster@lemmy.world
Joined: 2023-09-12
#57 · Quote Reply

My dog used to stare at me through mirrors, so what does that mean for her intelligence? Hyper intelligent. Red heelers will take over the world.
5
Arthur Besse lemmy.ml cypherpunks@lemmy.ml
Joined: 2022-01-17
#58 · Quote Reply
LurkingLuddite wrote:
ELIZA effect

from page 7 of Joseph Weizenbaum's Computer Power and Human Reason: From Judgement to Calculation (1976):

screenshot of PDF of page 7: Introduction intimate thoughts; clear evidence that people were conversing with the computer as if it were a person who could be appropriately and usefully addressed in intimate terms. I knew of course that people form all sorts of emotional bonds to machines, for example, to mu- sical instruments, motorcycles, and cars. And I knew from long ex- perience that the strong emotional ties many programmers have to their computers are often formed after only short exposures to their machines. What I had not realized is that extremely short exposures to a relatively simple computer program could induce powerful de- lusional thinking in quite normal people. This insight led me to attach new importance to questions of the relationship between the individual and the computer, and hence to resolve to think about them, 3. Another widespread, and to me surprising, reaction to the ELIZA program was the spread of a belief that it demonstrated a general solution to the problem of computer understanding of natu- ral language. In my paper, I had tried to say that no general solution to that problem was possible, ie., that language is understood only in contextual frameworks, that even these can be shared by people to only a limited extent, and that consequently even people are not embodiments of any such general solution. But these conclusions were often ignored, In any case, ELIZA was such a small and simple step. Its contribution was, if any at all, only to vividly underline what many others had long ago discovered, namely, the importance of context to language understanding. The subsequent, much more elegant, and surely more important work of Winograd in computer comprehension of English is currently being misinterpreted just as ELIZA was. This reaction to ELIZA showed me more vividly than anything I had seen hitherto the enormously exaggerated attribu- tions an even well-educated audience is capable of making, even strives to make, to a technology it does not understand. Surely, I thought, decisions made by the general public about emergent tech- nologies depend much more on what that public attributes to such technologies than on what they actually are or can and cannot do. If, as appeared to be the case, the public's attributions are wildly mis- conceived, then public decisions are bound to be misguided and

a pdf of the whole book is available here
4
certified_expert lemmy.world certified_expert@lemmy.world
Joined: 2025-10-03
#59 · Quote Reply
Why is Lemmy so Racist? wrote:
Neuroscience News isn't a conspiracy rag. It's an article summarizing a research paper, which they link to. So many of you don't bother to read actual research and instead repeat whatever you've seen online about how things work. More parrot than the AI.

I indeed have not read the link you shared. However, I am not discrediting your comment or source. I apologize if it came across with a hostile tone. On the contrary, thanks for commenting on my post with an interesting article.

My intent is not "parroting" AI-bad. The original post and my follow up comments are the result of... well, a shower. (I am a CS researcher myself, and I have been studying AI fundamentals for the last month)

My point is that the behavior you mention may as well be also part of the "reflexion" of the human behavior. After all, it is just text, attention, feedforward, and repeat on human text. We tend to create "conventions" when we talk: OP, TL;DR, IMHO, ELI5... are some examples of little agreements we take to compress information. We, indirectly reward that behavior. It makes sense that a program that detects and replicates human behavior will also pick that up.

In any case. Thanks for the comment, cheers!
1
certified_expert lemmy.world certified_expert@lemmy.world
Joined: 2025-10-03
#60 · (edited) Quote Reply
mriormro wrote:
I,too, like pulling random shit from my ass.

Hahah, yeah, maybe I am doing that. that's why it is a shower thought, not a research paper proposal.

The thought comes from my (kind or recent) study of the algebra/calculus under LLMs (at least the feedforward and backpropagation part of them)

The interesting part is that my ass is non-differentiable at x=0:

Lim x→0⁺ δass/δx
≠
Lim x→0⁻ δass/δx
2
Artisian lemmy.world Artisian@lemmy.world
Joined: 2023-06-20
#61 · Quote Reply

Just noting that the mirror test is a bad way of studying theory of mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#Criticism

It's interesting as a silly and absurd way humans used to demean other species. But I think it says a lot more about those who use it than the animals.
2
certified_expert lemmy.world certified_expert@lemmy.world
Joined: 2025-10-03
#62 · Quote Reply
Artisian wrote:
Just noting that the mirror test is a bad way of studying theory of mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#Criticism It's interesting as a silly and absurd way humans used to demean other species. But I think it says a lot more about those who use it than the animals.

Interesting!
1
XiELEd piefed.social XiELEd@piefed.social
Joined: 2025-10-16
#63 · Quote Reply
Lost_My_Mind wrote:
Huh.....so what you're saying is that mirrors are actually AI. THAT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE!!! EVERYBODY COVER YOUR MIRRORS!!!

Unironically in certain cultures there is a superstition that you should cover your mirrors at night
1
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