Cool, maybe that's true.

But ancient history isn't relevant and doesn't change the fact that cannabis use actually has legitimately been strongly correlated with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.

prove some weak link between marijuana use and some bad outcome

But it is proven that cannabis use causes bad outcomes. If used while the brain is developing, it causes learning problems. While smoking is not the only method to use the drug, it is the most common. Any type of smoke entering the lungs causes bad outcomes, and cannabis smoke contains orders of magnitude more tar than tobacco smoke. It is proven that it causes CHS in chronic/daily users. Addiction is a bad outcome. Memory problems are a bad outcome. These are all proven to be caused by cannabis use.

I used to smoke a lot of weed in high school and after for a bit. One day, the panic set in. It wasn't always, but the frequency definitely increased slowly, until eventually the risk of having a panic sesh became too much for me to be able to enjoy smoking.

Kind of unrelated and in the middle of all this, I remember talking to my old man, and he had lived a similar life to the one I was, at the time, currently leaving. He smoked a bunch of weed until, one day, couldn't do it any longer because of the panicks.

So I definitely anecodotally agree with the ineritableness, and I certainly agree and am an example of the idea that cannabis can bring out symptoms similar to schizophrenic episodes. And they are so far from my norm that I really can't attribute it to anything but the pots.

I've always felt that mental disorders can be like a switch, you flip it and it turns on, kinda. And the flipping can be the result of something external, life events, trauma, and drug and alcohol use. I had a friend who I smoked with often as a kid who eventually kinda disappeared into a world of mental issues, and I wonder if it would've been the same had he not smoked.

correlation =/= causation

Yeah 100%. That's why the grifters at this rag say "linked". It's sufficiently, pseudo-scientifically vague. That's what they're going for.

schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are both heritable conditions

Also fake news.

Again correlation (assumed) does not make causation. There is literally no gene for these symptoms.

On the other hand... The DSM is a pile of pseudo-scientific dogshit arbitrarily describing symptoms. And this article is trash clickbait intentionally obscuring correlation vs causation.

"I believe any clickbait headline that I see. The article says these things are LINKED!!!"

lmao.

cannabis use actually has legitimately been strongly correlated with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.

Even if that's true, the point is that correlation =/= causation. WOOOSH!!!

When people like you attempt to blame w33d, that's pseudo-science probably not even based on real science.

And again it's a tale as old as prohibition.

I believe any clickbait headline that I see.

That's a reach.

The article says these things are LINKED!!!

You spelled scientific study incorrectly.

Yep, that's why I typed "correlated" instead of "causes".

I work in mental health and was surprised by the amount of people in the field who believe marijuana is part of the problem, not just a symptom of it.

I've been in mental health institutions and it's amazing how many people will blame drugs in order to completely ignore the deep life/social problems that people face.

That's basically the whole point of the mental health industry. They turn social problems into druggable, profitable, "medical" problems - while also undermining any movements for social progress.

This is precisely the kind of situation that is re-entrenched by blaming the problem on weed.

That's the real danger of pseudo-scientific articles like this.

So much for this being a science forum.

This clickbait article is a pseudo-scientific joke just from the headline alone. And people are upvoting it. smh.

They wouldn't be in this research position if they accounted for capitalism.

Same probably goes for the downvoters. People are mad that you brought up root causes. The pharma shilling has been internalized.

Nobody knows this. You're just another person here conflating correlation with causation.

How many people will say this same nonsense? How many will upvote?

This is yet again pseudo-science based on the false belief that (presumed) correlation is the same as causation.

There’s a real link

Yes, it's called a correlation and, even if it exists, it's not the same as causation.

I can't believe how many people don't understand this in a supposed science comm.

I'm not understanding your argument. What about this is correlation and not causation? The body of literature indicating cannabis negatively impacts the mental health of people prone to developing psychosis is pretty extensive, and this is measured against other people who are prone to developing psychosis but who do not use cannabis

You're just going around saying "correlation doesn't equal causation" to everything regardless of context. Feel free to expound.

No, there definitely isn't "a gene" for schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, just like there isn't "a gene" for hair or eye color, two other traits that are highly heritable.

Here's just one source for you on this, and there are many more if you care to take a look:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5445022/

Oh sheesh. It runs in families. They're saying growing up with a schizophrenic parent exposes you to stress that makes you more likely to indulge in pot. Their point stands.

I don't think it should come as any sort of surprise that people who already have an underlying mental health issue would attempt to self-medicate as a teenager.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama-health-forum/fullarticle/2845356

I think this is the study. They controlled statistically for a variety of factors that various people in this post are assuming had interactions.

Also, the author's are from a variety of reputable universities and institutions in California.

Cox proportional hazards regression models were used to measure the strength of associations between adolescent cannabis use and incident psychiatric diagnoses, with adjustments for sex, race and ethnicity, neighborhood deprivation index, insurance type, and time-varying alcohol and other substance use.

The author's used statistical control methods for socioeconomic factors.

Cox proportional hazards regression models were used to measure the strength of associations between adolescent cannabis use and incident psychiatric diagnoses, with adjustments for sex, race and ethnicity, neighborhood deprivation index, insurance type, and time-varying alcohol and other substance use.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama-health-forum/fullarticle/2845356

I mean in general if you drink or do any drugs (caffeine and pre-workout included) before you're like 18 is probably not going to be good for you.

Schizophrena is a multi-allelic gene disorder, multiple genes contribute. There is not one schizophrenia gene, but there is a clear genetic component.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3433970/

You cannot discuss marijuana risks on the internet without triggering pot users.

Since legalization, the landscape of pediatrics has changed in Canada to address THC-related disorders. And we have a whole new class of risk in adults from cannabis use disorder.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37766508/

The internet will not accept this, and keep the lie alive that cannabis is not addictive. No, we have not seen friends burn out on pot and remove themselves from life.

He smoked a bunch of weed until, one day, couldn’t do it any longer because of the panicks.

But the weed he smoked was 10X less potent.

Pot users defending their lifestyle, Tale as old as time.

Even if that’s true, the point is that correlation =/= causation.

So, your claim is that there is a not a system of complex endo cannabinoids mediating signaling in the brain, which have been defined to affect learning and memory for 50 years. And, that it is "crazy" to think that ingesting large amounts of a foreign cannabinoid, not native to this system, does not affect the human brain?

Any "high", from alcohol, pot, asphyxia, oxygen, etc., is neural dsyfunction.

The police roadside sobriety test is identical to a clinical ataxia test.

They did. One of the variables they statistically controlled for in the study is the "neighbourhood deprivation index", which represents socio-economic living factors.

I thought that this is just confirmation of other studies? We knew that it exacerbates underlying mental conditions, especially in those underage.

It pretty much is, though I think this study is unusual in that it suggests that the effect may be independent of socioeconomic factors.

Though the authors do admit that there may be a bidirectional link at play, which is quite interesting, and relatively novel, off the top of my head. You're at higher risk for schizophrenia or psychosis if you use marijuana, but you're also more likely to use marijuana if you're at higher risk for schizophrenia or psychosis. A lot of prior studies established the links individually, but didn't combine them.

I don't think I have met the crowd you refer to.

There are a few dotted throughout this thread, laying the blame on other things than the hasis.

I am aware. If I may refer you to the very next sentence:

What that connection is and whether cannabis use among children is causing mental illness is still AFAIK an open question.

Yes yes, ofc they "controlled for". It's always the same argument with these studies. And you know it isn't remotely enough so you appeal to authority by saying "reputable universities and institutions", as if there hasn't been literally hundreds of billions put into anti-cannabis research and there's still only massively vague correlations instead of being able to show a single causation. Unlike with alcohol, which you can clearly demonstrate a sudden onset psychosis from pretty much anyone as long as you're giving them something above say 8% ABV for a few hours on an empty stomach.

Yet you'll also be able to find millions of people smoking weed daily without issues. You can't say that for alcohol. Yet the implication is still one of "we can't legalise more drugs" as if legalising made people less aware of the risks and less likely to abuse those substances, when we *know" it doesn't. It actually does the opposite. Prohibition increases abuse and associated risks.

But hey, let's spend another day arguing about how theres definitely a "link" between cannabis use and mental health disorders, even though not a single person can say what the link is how it forms or why.

Last time I did it I ended up having to read and Google all sorts of "reputable institutions" and once I did find the material, turns out even though they claimed to have controlled for all of those aspects, every single cannabis user was from a lower socioeconomic group than the control groups, which were in areas which were distinctly higher in average socioeconomic class. Then they just claimed that they had "controlled". They clearly hadn't. They had done the exact opposite.

Edit and just to make it clear, ofc any substance use has risks. Caffeine moreso than cannabis, for real.

I'm glad they did this study, but as they controlled for hazards, they did jack all to explore the meaning of their results beyond how it lined up with their hypothesis.

Just because the study went the way the expected doesn't mean there's causality. In fact, there's a bigger likelihood that adolescent cannabis use just doubles the likelihood of psychotic and bipolar diagnosis.

People are born with those conditions and weed just brings those behaviors out more easily. Specifically mania within those inclined to it from Bipolar.

I feel this study is fairly disingenuous seeing as it never bothers to consider the possibility that they are just more easily diagnosing these conditions in kids through their use of weed. These conditions are traditionally very hard to diagnose in children at ALL, as most psychotic behavior (that isn't EXTREME) usually manifests in later life typically in the early to late 20's.

Imo, this study has done nothing but prove that these conditions continue to go undiagnosed in children unless weed gives them enough comfort to behave in the more visibly psychotic ways most kids hide until adulthood.

No insult intended. Just surprised to not see this even considered in the study.

"cannabis is not addictive"

true.

edit - "friends burn out on pot and remove themselves from life" - this is an impressively far reach. wow