That's exactly what is proposed. We are not voting for a preemptive defederation. This whole proposal is only for if they decide to defederate from us first. We would love some other instances to commit to the boycott as well, in the event that happens

Until the LW admins do something much more stupid, I strongly vote Nay. If they do, I’m happy to respond accordingly.

I think you misread the proposal. The proposal is to pledge to boycott (aka defederate from) Lemmy World if (and only if) they decide to defederate one or all of our instances. We aren't planning to defederate from them pre-emptively.

It's basically a call for unity amongst the middle and smaller sized instances, to ensure there are negative consequences for LW if they go through with it.

I think you misread the proposal. The proposal is to pledge to boycott (aka defederate from) Lemmy World if (and only if) they decide to defederate one or all of our instances. We aren't planning to defederate from them pre-emptively.

It's basically a call for unity amongst the middle and smaller sized instances, to ensure there are negative consequences for LW if they go through with it.

We are not voting for a preemptive defederation. This whole proposal is only for if they decide to defederate from us first, which they are currently considering.

Don't worry, switching instances is quite easy here, and you can keep all your communities and subscriptions. If things go south I can recommend lemmy.zip and lemy.lol as general-purpose instances, hexbear.net and lemmy.ml as communist/socialist instances, and lemmy.dbzer0.com and anarchist.nexus as anarchist instances.

it's been pretty heartwarming to see the amount of support across fedi against the bad actors on .world and .social.

but I think it should be pointed out that some people seem to be under the impression this is a vote for defederation. instead, it's an invitation to forge a treaty between allied instances to defederate en masse if LW pulls more antagonistic bullying like they did this past week or so.

Please remember that this whole proposal is only for if they decide to defederate from us first. In that case, it would trigger the "blockade" which is (hopefully) a group of instances defederating from lemmy world in protest, en masse, until such time as the issues are resolved. All it is about really, is asking for mutual aid from other instances to ensure Lemmy World can't act with impunity with regard to defederations. It's purely a defensive measure. Does that make more sense?

Kaplan basically threatened us all with defederation after a "review", because they felt it would be "pointless" to only ban one of our instances (AN). All we want from LW is for them to put it to a community vote, instead of hiding their discussions in Discord servers etc, and leaving it solely in the hands of the current leadership team. Can anyone imagine Mr Kaplan and Jordan Lund doing any amount of self reflection, or coming back with a more moderate and reasonable take?

As things currently stand, LW is run top-down, with no accountability or transparency around policy decisions, poor (and slow) decision making on important issues, and an almost complete lack of community involvement in the running of the instance. It's basically run like Reddit, but with federation. They also consistently double down on bad admin decisions instead of doing some reflection, and so naturally, we are concerned that after a week or two of seemingly doing nothing, they will announce the end of their "review", decide they did nothing wrong (again), and proceed with the threatened defederation.

Lmao of course rimu would be the first to support this, fuck these bootlicking fascists with their Zionist victim cards always at the ready

We are not escalating, and are only proposing the blockade in the event LW defederates us again based on the whim of one of the admins again. I agree it is a massive waste of energy, but we didn't pick this fight.

Thanks for explaining. I appreciate that this is a proactive plan of action with clear goals and trigger events.

I vote aye.

I think you guys should just defederate, because even if you loose access to some popular or good comms Axis.world is just going to keep getting worse

They now are being pretty defensive of zionists, they rarely if ever moderate transphobia, they are eventually going to go more hands off on other issues until they start defending the wrong side over civility and eventually they will attract more like minded bigots who will join so their takes dont get moderated

Its the beginnings of a nazi bar basically

To clarify, this is not a vote to defederate. This a call to instance admins to pledge for a mutual protection pact.

I agree the time will come eventually, but right now I would guess a significant majority of our users would prefer to stay federated with LW for the content. Once all the dust has settled, and if LW does decide to stay federated, I think that's the best time to consider having a vote on it. But to be honest, I'm very doubtful a defed vote would succeed in that scenario. And if it goes the other way, then the decision is made for us.

Sure you can believe that if you insist. And as a result you can drive away potential allies. Seems pretty stupid to me, but what do I know?

I feel there needs to be a more nuanced federating system, wherein rogue admins can be banned from interacting with an instance and its users without splitting the whole fediverse apart. I dunno, that sounds like it creates other issues, but I'm all for the Canadian approach of bringing the middle powers together fwiw

Of course one should stand up against evil. As a 'centrist' I stand against Ireali genocide and war crimes. But I also condemn rocket attacks on Israeli civilians; and calls to genocide them. Just as Jews went from being victims of the holocaust to running Israel as it commits genocide, I wouldn't want to support Palestinians turning to be the evil of which they are now victims. That doesn't mean I stop detesting what Isreal is doing, or that I support it in any way. And yet, with such statements, I'll get called hasboro and a Zionist or Zionist apologist and told I'm repeating talking points. And then I'll get banned. It's happened multiple times and it's ridiculous. If people just want someone to agree with them 100%, they should use chatgpt. Lemmy should be for fair discourse.

That's basically every instance except for kinda this one and maybe one other. At the end of the day they run the server and are legally liable for the content so that's just how it is. If you have an instance with open signups you'd be crazy to leave admin questions to unvetted actors

Yeah I get it. I still vote no, defederation should be a total last resort and if world is being shitty with any of these other instances they sure aren't gonna care about the rest. But that's just my opinion, I don't run db0.

After the more recent (last year or so) ramp up of Israeli violence and after plenty of discourse here on Lemmy and other places, I see what Israel is doing now as genocide. Immediately after the Oct attacks, I saw it as a overzealous response that didn't take civilian safety anywhere nearly seriously enough. War is war and it sucks and should be avoided. After those Oct attacks, I felt Isreal was pulled into that war and did have to defend itself. But later on Isreal kept going even as the threat seems relatively neutralized. They buddied up with the U.S. under trump and got support to continue to commit atrocities with no goal other than revenge and the killing of Palestinians. And now they are attacking Lebanon in the same way. Maybe I was too slow to see when they crossed the line, but there's so much misinformation and evil on all sides it can be difficult. But the point here is that if I'd just been banned from discussion because I figured Isreal shouldn't have to put up with terrorists killing civilians at a music festival, it might have taken me a lot longer to gain a broader perspective of what's going on now. Banning people is stupid just because they disagree. Disagreement and the discussion over it is in fact really the main point of lemmy, I would think.

As a 'centrist' I stand against Ireali genocide and war crimes. But I also condemn rocket attacks on Israeli civilians; and calls to genocide them. Just as Jews went from being victims of the holocaust to running Israel as it commits genocide, I wouldn't want to support Palestinians turning to be the evil of which they are now victims. That doesn't mean I stop detesting what Isreal is doing, or that I support it in any way.

I think you may be conflating specific centrism with general centrism. Sometimes when you take a hard stand about something, you wind up on one person's side or another, but sometimes you wind up against both sides depending on the day or year. That's a specific centrism that emerges as a result of actually not being a general centrist.

The general centrist shows up to the fight of the day and instead of saying "this needs to stop, genocide is wrong" to whoever is doing it at the time, they go "well hold on now, there are good people on both sides here and I'm sure this is all just a big misunderstanding. Let's not take sides!"

I thought they'd decided to refederate? Isn't this just continuing the disagreement for no reason at this point? I'm completely against defederation unless absolutely necessary. The more fragmented it becomes the less the concept of the Fediverse actually exists, and it just becomes a bunch of random websites. The main reason I joined this instance was the lack of defederation and the lack of drama.

I'm not necessarily against the idea of a Fediverse wide boycott of LW if they do keep unnecessarily defederating smaller instances but I'm not convinced we need to have this discussion unless they demonstrate a clear pattern. Also due to their size unless the majority of other instances are on board its going to be completely ineffective.

Thanks for all your hard work.

You should start a .world crossposting campaign as well.

It’s not just your opinion, we are a collective. We all take part in running dbzer0.

I thought they’d decided to refederate? Isn’t this just continuing the disagreement for no reason at this point? I’m completely against defederation unless absolutely necessary.

You are right that they did decide to re-federate, but only until they completed a review. Mr Kaplan feels there is no point only de-federating from AN, he is pushing hard for LW to de-federate from the whole FAF. We don't want a defed, and this is simply an attempt to raise awareness and pressure LW to act more reasonably.

Practically tho it's more like 'hold on a minute, there are fucked up evil people on both sides, but we've got to figure out the best path forward now without getting too hung up on historical crap'. Morality is great, but realism usually gets in the way and we have to be pragmatic sometimes. Not that this really applies the the current situation in the ME; there's fuck all we can do except pressure other (non US & Isreal) governments to take a stance against genocide and wait for the midterms and hope to hell enough Americans wake the fuck up to provide some pushback against the gop and other blind Isreali supporters.

If you need allies for the cause, then you need people who would be allies to the actual cause, and not to the watered down version you present to get more allies. In that case you would be driving away the allies you actually want because they don't want to stand with a limp centrist.

'hold on a minute, there are fucked up evil people on both sides, but we've got to figure out the best path forward now without getting too hung up on historical crap'.

Yeah, that's that limp general centrist nonsense. The first priority is to put a stop to the current ongoing genocide. It's not to pause at the edge of the battlefield to tell everyone how bad or good both sides are. That's just theatrical bullshit. That's not taking a stand against genocide, that's pretending to so that people will listen to you when you have nothing of value to say.

I think the four major points people need to take away from this vote are:

• 1. FAF defederation, in this manifestation (that may change in the future, subject to a new vote I hope), from LW is reactive, not proactive; we and our flotilla will defederate if and only if they defederate first
• 1. FAF defederation, in this manifestation (that may change in the future, subject to a new vote I hope), from LW is an act of solidarity with small, new, niche instances that share the same cause, where we protect us from abusers in the Fediverse
• 1. FAF defederation, in this manifestation (that may change in the future, subject to a new vote I hope), from LW is not dissimilar from Boycotts, Divestments, and Sanctions (BDS) IRL where pressure is applied to isolate and eventually cause attrition of a monopolous instance to the point where the instance's admins see their instance declining in popularity/activity and reverse their decision to defederate
• 1. FAF defederation, in this manifestation (that may change in the future, subject to a new vote I hope), from LW is temporary in that we only defederate for as long as they do with the long-term hope of encouraging freedom of thought, expression, digital movement, and self-determination of Lemmings and Fedizens more broadly, perhaps leading to a decline in LW users and a rise in non-LW users over time as the users themselves decide to live digitally where they want without others manipulating their agency

Assuming I'm reflecting the ideals of db0's admins here, I vote Aye.

Thanks for this rundown, I appreciate it

It would be nice if people would just do what you think is right. But back in the real world, you have to look at different perspectives and find a solution. Maybe military or economic pressure against iseal is the only way they'll pay attention. But some of them probably feel the same about stopping Hamas. There are certainly some evil people in the world, but most people lash out and attack based on some perception of fear. If we can't find some sort of compromise, we have to go with might is right, and that likely won't end nicely.

But what actually is 'the cause'? The peace and prosperity for Palestinians as well as Jews? Or is your cause revenge and murder? I will join you for the first, but not the second.

The thing that makes this hard for an instance itself to root out its own corruption is that admins (and mods) can control what language and thought is present at any moment on an instance.

Dissent by users can be silenced by mods and/or admins which suppresses what the other remaining "normies" see. And even though these things may be tracked in the modlog, a lot of Lemmy or Fediverse normies may not have the time, energy, or knowledge of how to evaluate those modlogs themselves (unless they're uniquely motivated). And even though I'm not claiming that LW does this now or will in the future, instances may run votes asking about specific admins or mods to be deplatformed, only to delete downvotes or dissenting comments in an effort to sham the results.

Freedom of thought and expression across the Fediverse allows for transparency, solidarity, and punishment through isolation. Defederation is objectively worse for an instance's digital people's (really all instances), but it is a necessary tool to prevent accelerated corruption to the largest instances out there.

Centrists aren't allies to any cause. They sit on the fence while murder happens and go "well maybe there's two sides to this story, I'm sure that person had a reason to stab them."

I personally wouldn't like to work with someone who has no convictions but defending the status quo that they could change but are too lazy to think or act.

I raise my pint to defederating from cringe.world!

It's important to look for the reasons, the perspectives and try to understand the different sides. That doesn't mean one can't have convictions and support one side over another when push comes to shove. A good compromise is usually when all sides are equally pissed off. If you don't recognize that, then you are doomed to fight to the death (one side or the other). Sometimes that's the only way, but it's better to look for reasonable alternatives. Murder is a pretty solid red line, but the problem is that we can go back for weeks, years, decades and find excuses to murder because of murders, and that never stops. In the current situation with Isreal, there is no valid defense of Isreal's actions. But imagine if the Palestinians somehow got the upper hand militarily - would they have the right to murder Jewish civilians? I'm sure there's enough hate that it would happen. Who would you support then?

But imagine if the Palestinians somehow got the upper hand militarily - would they have the right to murder Jewish civilians?

No.

This seems reasonable.

The cause is to put an end to genocide as a thing that humans keep doing to each other. To stop it when it happens and work toward a future where it doesn't happen again. It's not about Jews or Palestinians, who's right or wrong in general or at any given moment.

That's great and I certainly back that cause. I think many people lose sight of it tho.

Right, but humans being humans, we know that would happen. So would you then have sympathy for that to any degree?

Don't even know what you're talking about... but hopefully all (them) agree that more federation is bestest federation.

Until the LW admins do something much more stupid, I strongly vote Nay. If they do, I’m happy to respond accordingly.

that's literally an Aye, i think you misread/misinterpreted the proposal

I came here to make a joke about how LW removing themselves would be doing you a favor. Instead though I've gotten a semi-serious thought about a pact to defederate any instance that gets too big: either a set number of users, or maybe even a percentage of total Lemmy users.

based

Already personally blocked .world. Partially because too big, partially because they suck.

Seriously. The problem will only get worse.

I feel like defederating from them isnt rge worst loss. Theyre too big. Also they suck.