I have offered to do a lot of education and technical effort surrounding this, e.g. helping groups migrate in some of the circles I'm involved with and all it's really gotten me is abuse and condescension, bafflingly. No one cares and if they do it's mostly superficial and they want the easiest way out—someone/something do everything for me, and I mean everything. I don't want to click more than two buttons and even that is pushing it, buster. Sometimes there aren't easy solutions, though, and I think this is one of those times. Big Tech is massive and in the world we live in now we cannot have all of the things it promises without immense tradeoff, and for the most part it just isn't worth it. The modern web being almost completely centralized around Discord is really harmful, like what happened with Facebook years ago. What used to be simple, publicly accessible websites for all these groups, locations and interests with email, forums and chat rooms for asynchronous as well as real-time communication is now entirely on Discord or Facebook. It's disastrous. Neither of those things are easily accessible or friendly to archival...why do I need to be in a Discord chat room or Facebook group for community events around my public library? It's absurd. I hate all of this so much, and basically no one around me agrees with me so we'll just circle the drain forever while the "pet cameras" start calling DHS on our neighbors.

I'm just going back to xmpp, maybe mumble for voice calls. They're both friendly and simple and xmpp supports modern features just fine. I can host it for myself and my friends who care; I don't have much hope for the masses anymore. I don't really like how bloated Matrix/Synapse is, and everything else is riding coattails we don't need to ride. I don't care about video games or streaming to people in a chat room or anything like that, and if I did I'm sure something like Jitsi handles that well enough. Oh no, a second program!! We are all so dependent on tech in our lives but it seems like so many want nothing to do with being informed about it on any level...I just don't get it.

Basically how discord works right now with other "servers" but it can actually ne a different server.

Matrix is more like Skype/Zoom you create a call or session.

That's true for Matrix with Jitsi. I'm selfhosting with Element Call enabled and we're using video rooms that you can use as one does on Discord. It's nice but needs a few more features before I'll be completely happy with it. For a group to voice chat it's great. If you're sharing shows, movies, games, etc then I think it needs the following....

• Per share stream volume controls
• Audio quality settings
• Push to talk

I've seen pull requests that address these things so I'm hoping that we see these features soon than later.

I know that the cinny client for matrix is getting fairly close to adding this fwiw

I have deployed LiveKit for my homeserver yesterday. I'm not gonna lie, it does involve a bit of work, but once it's running it is very seamless.

I have offered to do a lot of education and technical effort surrounding this, e.g. helping groups migrate in some of the circles I’m involved with and all it’s really gotten me is abuse and condescension, bafflingly.
No one cares and if they do it’s mostly superficial and they want the easiest way out—someone/something do everything for me, and I mean everything. I don’t want to click more than two buttons and even that is pushing it, buster.

Oh no, a second program!! We are all so dependent on tech in our lives but it seems like so many want nothing to do with being informed about it on any level…I just don’t get it.

I feel this in my soul, and it's something I've noticed a lot on reddit when trying to tell people that lemmy/piefed exist. Some of them will just find any reason whatsoever to not do something, pointing out the most minor of differences or slightest inconveniences as insurmountable obstacles that no human could be expected to overcome, and usually end it with "if It's not already perfect/better than what I'm currently using (despite the alternative not being actively user-hostile like the thing they're using and complain about is) I'm not going to bother".

I’m just going back to xmpp, maybe mumble for voice calls.

With the Movim client (or Dino client), XMPP can do group voice/video calls :D

Check out the Movim client for XMPP, it allows it perform group video/audio calls, and even has screen sharing! (though you need to use a chromium browser to share the audio of an application for now). And the dev is currently working on implementing Discord-style channels with collections of rooms.

One of the problems is that a "privacy-respecting solution" that includes a monthly bill is self-defeating. It creates a paper trail.

Part of why I want to self-host in the first place is to get away from shitty gigantic corporations. Discord, Spotify, Netflix, HBO, Disney, etc. Just because you are paying them doesn't mean they aren't making you a product anyways anymore.

I would love for a good way to do this without having to rely on Cloudflare or Tailscale or similar too. Even if they have free options today, what are those free options going to look like 2 years from now?

Movim would be a good one to try. It's actually more full featured than Stoat as well, as it offers Encryption, Federation (XMPP), group video/audio calls, and screensharing with application audio! (must use a chromium based browser to pass the audio for now). It is currently missing Discord-like channels with rooms, but the dev is actively working on that.

Stoat currently cannot do video calls or screensharing, and has no plans to implement encryption or federation, AFAIK.

Also @astropenguin5@lemmy.world, @Pika@sh.itjust.works and @betahack@lemmy.world

I wasn't really sure if the US chatroom app infamous for harboring pedophiles and saving hyperlinks of users' deleted photos in rooms' modlog was evil but now that the logo is red and has scary eyes I'm seriously considering it

EDIT: The Fluxer dev has agreed to remove the CLA!

I was just informed today of a huge red flag for Fluxer; it has a contributor CLA that could allow it to change to a non-FLOSS license in the future. I was hopeful for it previously, but that kills it for me.

Also @64bithero@lemmy.world

I'll be sticking with Movim, which is already federated, encrypted, can do group video calls, can even screenshare, and most critically does not have a CLA.

Movim doesn't cost anything and is federated (just like piefed/lemmy are). It also offers really solid encryption for privacy. I'd say it's out best long-term option.

The Movim client for XMPP can do all of those functions as a one-stop shop. It can even do screensharing with audio passthrough (though you need to use a chromium based browser to pass the application audio in the stream). I think it's easily out best option right now.

Movim looks insanely promising. I’ll have to check it out after I get off work. I’ll have to update my write up if it’s that impressive. Curious how it will handle from what I understand XMPP is protocol like matrix yes ?

I get what your saying and it’s true people are insanely lazy. But the whole point of these applications is to chat with your friends. So if you can’t get them to move in the first place , what’s the point of the application then ? So while there is no perfect solution , trying to do to much at once won’t work either …

You can PM me your error messages for help. When it comes to simple group voice chat, I recommend mumble

Yes, it's an open-standard that anyone can create a client for. Here's a good presentation with more details on XMPP itself, if you're interested :)

One of the problems is that a “privacy-respecting solution” that includes a monthly bill is self-defeating. It creates a paper trail.

I told that in the most general sense. You may self-host or rent a VPS, all cost money and maintenance. There is always more private and less private options. But anything run but a volunteer or community or selfhoster wouldn't data mine to sell ads, that you can be sure.

I know I didn’t mention it in my post, but I do have a couple requirements:

• Self-hosted
• Web client
• Voice/video conference/group
• Private messaging

Nice-to-haves:

• Native mobile/desktop app
• Modern UI
• Lightweight

I have my sights on Snikket at the moment, but that was one I couldn’t get up and running. I can reach out with errors and maybe get it running, but my point stands that Docker Compose is supposed to be as hands-off as it gets, but some devs seem to not get that.

This was probably one of the first times I can remember when our chat programs were under one primary program. Before Discord there was market segmentation abound and I think it made the system better for there were alternate means of contact. Discord becoming monolithic like it it did was a real issue and let's be honest, we need to have alternatives. I foresee Discord still being used for a bit by most of my groups, but they are certainly considering alternatives.

thanks. i guess it's as good as the other electron/web based clients on desktop, but on mobile is PWA okay to use? my phone is too old and suffers with everything but well optimized native apps, so my experience doesn't match others'.

It'd be pretty easy to quickly test. If it runs okay in your phone's browser, it'll run okay as a PWA.

Alternatively, you could use a native XMPP mobile app, which would allow you to access the same servers and chats as you could from Movim. The only downside is that the mobile apps available are lagging behind Movim's feature set. They can do 1 on 1 audio/video calls, but cannot yet join a group call or screenshare. Depending on your needs, that may or may not be adequate.

Stoat did a Q&A the other day. Looks like voice is live and screen sharing is implemented but not live yet.

That being said it looks like these updates apply to the hosted service. Improving the self hosted experience is something they want to do but right now they are just trying to keep the hosted service humming due to increased activity.

Hey, quick update, the Fluxer dev has agreed to remove the CLA, so I'd say that puts it back in the running.

it runs like crap on my phone since it's 12 years old. conversations.im works but it's features can't completely replace discord, at least for my friends.

Oh wow, I wasn't expecting it to be that old. That's actually quite impressive you're able to keep it functioning that long, are you still able to get battery replacements?

Sucks that the PWA isn't able to cut it. Perhaps you might have better luck with Fluxer when that releases a mobile app? (I think its only offering a PWA for now as well).

unfortunately i can't get new batteries, the battery life isn't good but it's usable as i don't really use my phone much. also have 6 replacable batteries that i carry sometimes.

for now my group will migrate to zulip and their app works on my phone, i was just trying to attempt xmpp too since it's always great to have more options (and possibly setup xmpp as a backup to the zulip room with matterbridge on physically distant server)

I have deployed LiveLit for my homeserver

Do you mean LiveKit?

US based as well, unfortunately.

you can try but right now it is not supported, same as fluxer

I'm not sure I understand why Fluxer's monetization gets so much hate. It seems to me like it is a built-in way for the people hosting servers to accept money from users.

Any source on this Fluxer monetization? I get that they need to sustain the flagship server, but AFAIK the dev said none of these monetization features will limit what you can do in your self-hosted Fluxer (when it comes)

Don't get me wrong, I'm wary of Fluxer but it seems like the dev does have a plan unlike Stoat that's has been very slow (already tried it when it was called Revolt and has not changed at all)

I mean, if they are your friends and you are offering an alternative (assuming they asked or want it) they should to put some effort to install an app or two just for that

Now, if your 'friends' are a discord community with hundreds of users, that's a different use-case.

I'm gonna try setting up an XMPP server for group calls, I read prosody is good and light

Matrix is a mess to setup in baremetal behind a CGNAT and I only use playit.gg to proxy my homeserver (for minecraft at the moment)

While I appreciate what Movim is going for it feels like something different then Discord. It fees like it’s trying to be a whole social network. Which is kind of cool but it also feels very very busy.

thanks for the ping, I will defo look into that one as part of my testing as well!

Honestly that's fair enough, it definitely could use a professional UX pass. Cheers for giving it a shot though :)

I might end up trying that as my Facebook replacement but not Discord. Their policies and data handling should win them an award

there are too many frictions overall.

That was my experience too. I can't remember now what my objections were, but I tried it and did not like it or want to use it.

I am now self hosting XMPP + encryption server which I have got some of my friends to install clients for. Oh, they bitch nonstop about how it isn't as nice as whatever big tech app they are used to. But they use it, because I am not going to talk to them on $TrendingSurveillanceApp.

Yup, typo. It is lit, though.

Managed to get a matrix server up + a web client frontend hosted on same site for friend group .

3 container docker compose: continuwuity, tunnel, premade Cinny image with nginx serving frontend.

Great if you don't care about voice,
but if you do then you'll need to host a TURN server on a VPS and connect home server to that.

Been working great for my group. I think the criticism for the open source options is over played. And so is the monetization angle for creators with fluxer, avenues for that bridges a lot of gaps for adoption.

Item #9 on the roadmap

Prosody is what I use on my current server, which is just a really ancient Dell sitting in my closet. It could not handle Synapse+federation whatsoever. Prosody (and really anything XMPP) has been an absolute breeze in comparison.

isn't matrix compromised and holding ties to israel?

Back to irc, you silly fucks.

🫂

Matrix was originally developed by Israeli company Amdocs, which has since rebranded and moved to the UK.

But they are sketchy as all hell, denying that their parent company was involved in proven spying incidents.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36020947

Isn't Matrix open source? And wouldn't hosting your own instance unfederated resolve that concern?

thank you for the information.