Link: https://slyflourish.com/defending_out_of_the_fun.html

This popped up in my RSS feed and I found it a good read

For some time now I've felt that D&D-like d20 mechanics is cursed to have the problem of inflation. But it was refreshing to see someone else point it out too

D&D hasn't been what it says on the tin for quite a long while now, let's be fair.

I''m genuinely excited to see other options really finding their stride this last decade+ (and most are light years beyond WotC's bullshit "business" model, to say nothing of these new titles' contributions to our community, et al) 🤓🤘🏼

INeedMana
This all reflects the constant handwringing I see on the PF2e subreddit over that game. All discussion is optimization discussion, and all discussion is complaining about the direct effects of optimization. Or -- because bonus inflation is highly controlled in that system -- they're complaining about how it's so unfair that the game doesn't let you just break it, the way 3.x, 5.x, or PF1e does.

Players want to break the game, but then find the results of that confusing and angry making.

which is kinda funny because while you can't make a completely broken build and would really have to try to make a useless build. There is optimization. You can make something that maybe is out dpsing another character by like double still. I think maybe what frustrates them is oftentimes buffing and debuffing are the strongest things a character can do so they get to share in the dps glory or something.

Pf2e was a really great move away from dnd 5e for me, but the longer I play it, the more I realize I think it's still not what I ultimately want. However, that's not due to the math or the numbers involved, which I think is probably the game's strongest aspect, or one of them.

HubertManne Yes, but what's become very obvious from hanging out in that space is that many, many players don't want to actually play these games. They just want to win them. And those are very different things. Many players are just looking for a pre-programmed turn rotation which... I mean, I'm not sure why they're playing a TTRPG at that point.

iamthetot

I think at a time where the TTRPG scene is getting a little weirder, PF2e finds itself in this space as being the "traditional modern D&D game", which is both an interesting and a boring place to sit, depending on what one is looking for. It's not old school -- it's rooted in 3e, the first modern D&D edition -- but it's also not interesting in breaking conventions, either.

And, while it's an incredibly flexible system if you let it be, most of the audience that has grown around it are more rigid than diamond.

yeah I actually loved when the dm does all the dice rolling and everyone can just roleplay and even just say what they are doing and the dm sorta interprets it and maybe says if its not a good idea. Those are some dedicated hard working dms though. I love how tight the system is and so wish a crpg was made from it. Kinda was hoping the baldurs gate folks would. What i meant was though that they can kinda win. Start as a ranger if you want high dps or a barb if you want consitant dps or fighter for the crit fishing or magus to do the one big nuke per round. monk for movement and options or be like the sherlock holmes in the movie never making a wrong decision. they just need to decide what makes them happy. if im feeling lazy I do a bard if i want the dps I do a martial and my go to is druid which I kinda feel is the original gish.

HubertManne I started rolling for my table during our last session. It was, truly, an overwhelming experience, and I need to figure out a better system for managing it, but my players were beyond thrilled with the setup. It worked beyond even the most hopeful player's dreams. For them, at least. I'll figure out what I need to make it viable on my end.

I backed the PF2e and SF2e cRPG games on Kickstarter last year. They're both smaller projects that won't live up even to the Owlcat games, I'm sure, but I have hopes for them being good and interesting.