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cm0002
europe.pub
cm0002@europe.pub Joined: 2025-11-06 |
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remon
ani.social
remon@ani.social Joined: 2024-09-25 |
So what? Hasn't stopped us from farming mammals and birds, so why should it matter for animals that are even less cute? |
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zzffyfajzkzhnsweqm
sh.itjust.works
zzffyfajzkzhnsweqm@sh.itjust.works Joined: 2025-02-07 |
Those criteria seem vague enough one can probably count most plants as capable of pain... But generally outcome seems obvious and intuitive enough. Would normal person intentionally torture cricket just for the fun of it? |
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yenahmik
lemmy.world
yenahmik@lemmy.world Joined: 2023-06-10 |
I don't understand why the assumption always is that X doesn't feel pain until proven otherwise. It would be logical that most if not all living things are capable of experiencing pain, as that is the innate way for the body to protect itself from harm. I think the assumption should always be that every living being can feel pain and then if proven otherwise that would be the exception. How many times has it been proven wrong that X can infact feel pain - from human infants to mammals to fish, etc... |
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amio
lemmy.world
amio@lemmy.world Joined: 2023-06-19 |
Those criteria seem vague enough one can probably count most plants as capable of pain... But generally outcome seems obvious and intuitive enough. Would normal person intentionally torture cricket just for the fun of it?
Plants groom themselves, preferring areas that were damaged? Damn, my local flora is boring as shit. |
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amio
lemmy.world
amio@lemmy.world Joined: 2023-06-19 |
Oops. |
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Iconoclast
feddit.uk
Iconoclast@feddit.uk Joined: 2026-02-05 |
There's also a Shrimp Welfare Project. One could argue that this is even worse than pig farming due to the sheer scale of it and donating to them to enable painless death for the shrimp could be the most good you can do with your money when looking at how far even just one dollar gets you. |
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Talcosis
lemmy.zip
impairedimperator@lemmy.zip Joined: 2026-06-03 |
Plants groom themselves, preferring areas that were damaged? Damn, my local flora is boring as shit.
No, but they will release chemical signals that attract predators of things that eat plants, while telling other nearby plants to start moving nutrients into their root structures to minimize damage. |
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Beacon
fedia.io
Beacon@fedia.io Joined: 2024-07-16 |
I don't understand why the assumption always is that X doesn't feel pain until proven otherwise. It would be logical that most if not all living things are capable of experiencing pain, as that is the innate way for the body to protect itself from harm. I think the assumption should always be that every living being can feel pain and then if proven otherwise that would be the exception. How man...
Exactly, it's crazy to think that any organism with a nervous system can't feel pain. The default assumption should be that a nervous system = ability to feel pain unless proven otherwise |
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Quibblekrust
thelemmy.club
Quibblekrust@thelemmy.club Joined: 2025-02-09 |
So what? Hasn't stopped us from farming mammals and birds, so why should it matter for animals that are even less cute?
We at least don't boil mammals alive, or bake them alive. If we find that crickets suffer from these things, we can find more humane ways of killing them. The article isn't arguing for not eating them, just killing them humanely. A bolt gun to a cattle's head is instant death. We can't go using tiny bolt guns on crickets, but perhaps asphyxiation or something. Asphyxiation is a painless form of death for mammals, as long as they aren't breathing excess carbon dioxide. The panic and pain that comes from not breathing is due to carbon dioxide buildup in the blood, not from a lack of oxygen. So maybe that's an avenue to explore if we want to lower cricket suffering. |
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Valmond
lemmy.dbzer0.com
Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.comJoined: 2025-11-13 |
I don't understand why the assumption always is that X doesn't feel pain until proven otherwise. It would be logical that most if not all living things are capable of experiencing pain, as that is the innate way for the body to protect itself from harm. I think the assumption should always be that every living being can feel pain and then if proven otherwise that would be the exception. How man...
Well, because it has not really been proved at all, except if we accept some specific assumptions (about consciousness), and if you wiggle those assumptions just a tiny bit, trees also feel pain, and stones too. Maybe they do. Maybe they don't. But I guess that is why it's hard to settle down on things, like babies don't feel pain was so ingrained in people, until it wasn't. Personally I wonder what should we do if insects feel pain. Accept it? And then do what? A question more complicated than it seems at first glance IMO. |
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Valmond
lemmy.dbzer0.com
Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.comJoined: 2025-11-13 |
We at least don't boil mammals alive, or bake them alive. If we find that crickets suffer from these things, we can find more humane ways of killing them. The article isn't arguing for not eating them, just killing them humanely. A bolt gun to a cattle's head is instant death. We can't go using tiny bolt guns on crickets, but perhaps asphyxiation or something. Asphyxiation is a painless form of...
*humane |
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Skymt
lemmy.world
Skymt@lemmy.world Joined: 2023-06-17 |
What is this medieval level of thinking? It's alive, of course it can feel pain. That is how living things avoid being dead things. |
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CanadaPlus
lemmy.sdf.org
CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org Joined: 2023-06-12 |
What is this medieval level of thinking? It's alive, of course it can feel pain. That is how living things avoid being dead things.
It should be the default assumption for anything mobile with senses. |
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CanadaPlus
lemmy.sdf.org
CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org Joined: 2023-06-12 |
Interesting. That's also the one critter that I've seen evidence for not feeling pain. If a cricket or other grig is eating something, and another bug starts to eat them from behind, they don't seem to notice, and continue what they're doing. Maybe it's only in their head region? |
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CanadaPlus
lemmy.sdf.org
CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org Joined: 2023-06-12 |
So what? Hasn't stopped us from farming mammals and birds, so why should it matter for animals that are even less cute?
We might get there, but yes, just not thinking about it is a common and powerful response. |
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CanadaPlus
lemmy.sdf.org
CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org Joined: 2023-06-12 |
No, but they will release chemical signals that attract predators of things that eat plants, while telling other nearby plants to start moving nutrients into their root structures to minimize damage.
Pain has an emotional component though. Without a devoted nervous system, any kind of subjective experience a plant has would be on a very long timescale, at the very least. (And you'd have the weird situation where it's mind "grows" as it's thinking) For sure, people treat a dog as if it has pain, and lettuce as if it doesn't, and I'd be surprised if you wanted to change that. |
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turdburglar
piefed.social
turdburglar@piefed.social Joined: 2025-07-03 |
I don't understand why the assumption always is that X doesn't feel pain until proven otherwise. It would be logical that most if not all living things are capable of experiencing pain, as that is the innate way for the body to protect itself from harm. I think the assumption should always be that every living being can feel pain and then if proven otherwise that would be the exception. How man...
let me know when the trees stop screaming, clarice. |
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Bytemeister
lemmy.world
Bytemeister@lemmy.world Joined: 2023-07-29 |
I have to live feed crickets to my pet spiders and gecko... Whether or not they feel pain, it still doesn't look like a clean or easy way to go. Learn from my mistake, don't get pets that need live foods. |
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Bytemeister
lemmy.world
Bytemeister@lemmy.world Joined: 2023-07-29 |
We at least don't boil mammals alive, or bake them alive. If we find that crickets suffer from these things, we can find more humane ways of killing them. The article isn't arguing for not eating them, just killing them humanely. A bolt gun to a cattle's head is instant death. We can't go using tiny bolt guns on crickets, but perhaps asphyxiation or something. Asphyxiation is a painless form of...
I went through a lot of searches on euthanasia for small insects when my pet spider was struggling to get around and stopped eating. Basically, all the methods are slow, painful and scary... Except for one. Crushing is near instant, faster than they can register pain, just a spider one moment and a smear the next. It's probably the toughest way for you, but it's the fastest, least painful, and least stressful way for them. |
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| 6 | |||
AMillionMonkeys
lemmy.world
AMillionMonkeys@lemmy.worldJoined: 2023-06-13 |
What is this medieval level of thinking? It's alive, of course it can feel pain. That is how living things avoid being dead things.
Plants are alive. |
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fyzzlefry
retrolemmy.com
fyzzlefry@retrolemmy.comJoined: 2025-03-16 |
So what? Hasn't stopped us from farming mammals and birds, so why should it matter for animals that are even less cute?
Ha it hasn't stopped us from denying healthcare. |
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Rachelhazideas
lemmy.world
Rachelhazideas@lemmy.world Joined: 2023-07-10 |
I have to live feed crickets to my pet spiders and gecko... Whether or not they feel pain, it still doesn't look like a clean or easy way to go. Learn from my mistake, don't get pets that need live foods.
Can you kill the crickets quickly before giving it to the spiders? Or will they refuse to eat them unless they're alive? |
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offspec
lemmy.world
offspec@lemmy.world Joined: 2023-07-02 |
Plants are alive.
And they react to stimulus, they probably have a perception of pain. They communicate with other plants and will support other plants if they are related, life is complicated. I'm still going to eat my greens. |
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Bytemeister
lemmy.world
Bytemeister@lemmy.world Joined: 2023-07-29 |
Can you kill the crickets quickly before giving it to the spiders? Or will they refuse to eat them unless they're alive?
No. If it isn't moving, they don't really see them as prey to capture. I can sometimes trick the lizard with a dead cricket, but the spider is much more selective. I should mention I have a jumping spider, not the typical web-spinning spider. |
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TacoButtPlug
sh.itjust.works
TacoButtPlug@sh.itjust.worksJoined: 2023-07-02 |
they have nociceptors then yes, they're wired to feel pain |
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Railcar8095
lemmy.world
Railcar8095@lemmy.world Joined: 2023-06-15 |
And they react to stimulus, they probably have a perception of pain. They communicate with other plants and will support other plants if they are related, life is complicated. I'm still going to eat my greens.
There's a leap between react and feel pain. Pain is a useful evolutionary trait that can help survive. For a plant which can't react quickly "pain" doesn't offer any value. Sure, they must have systems "know" there's harm, but without a way to quickly react it's detrimental. |
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zzffyfajzkzhnsweqm
sh.itjust.works
zzffyfajzkzhnsweqm@sh.itjust.works Joined: 2025-02-07 |
Plants groom themselves, preferring areas that were damaged? Damn, my local flora is boring as shit.
They do groom themselves. Trees grow a tissue around their wound. A chayote bends its vine on response to my touch. Yes they use chemicals and hormones to perform that action, but so do we? Their nervous system is of course different and slower than ours, but you have no mechanism that would say you or cricket feels pain and my chayote does not. From my point of view you, chayote and crickets might all just be philosophical zombies and just respond to some stimuly as robots. |
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zzffyfajzkzhnsweqm
sh.itjust.works
zzffyfajzkzhnsweqm@sh.itjust.works Joined: 2025-02-07 |
Pain has an emotional component though. Without a devoted nervous system, any kind of subjective experience a plant has would be on a very long timescale, at the very least. (And you'd have the weird situation where it's mind "grows" as it's thinking) For sure, people treat a dog as if it has pain, and lettuce as if it doesn't, and I'd be surprised if you wanted to change that.
Why would that be an issue? Are sloths less capable of pain because they are slower?
Why would be an issue with that? Kids brain grows and you have no issue with acknowledging their mind? It is not too hard to imagine?
What a strange assumption on my intentions... |
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Quibblekrust
thelemmy.club
Quibblekrust@thelemmy.club Joined: 2025-02-09 |
*humane
Yeah, just a typo. You'll notice I said "humanely" a sentence later. |
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dbtng
sh.itjust.works
dbtng@sh.itjust.worksJoined: 2026-07-11 |
There's a leap between react and feel pain. Pain is a useful evolutionary trait that can help survive. For a plant which can't react quickly "pain" doesn't offer any value. Sure, they must have systems "know" there's harm, but without a way to quickly react it's detrimental.
I don't disagree with you, but there's a body of research about plants' reactions, and some of them certainly look more like pain than just accommodating to negative stimuli. |
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dbtng
sh.itjust.works
dbtng@sh.itjust.worksJoined: 2026-07-11 |
Don't much care about the sensations that crickets, or even lobster may have. |
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dbtng
sh.itjust.works
dbtng@sh.itjust.worksJoined: 2026-07-11 |
Interesting. That's also the one critter that I've seen evidence for not feeling pain. If a cricket or other grig is eating something, and another bug starts to eat them from behind, they don't seem to notice, and continue what they're doing. Maybe it's only in their head region?
That is odd as fuk. Really? |
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dbtng
sh.itjust.works
dbtng@sh.itjust.worksJoined: 2026-07-11 |
Those criteria seem vague enough one can probably count most plants as capable of pain... But generally outcome seems obvious and intuitive enough. Would normal person intentionally torture cricket just for the fun of it?
Well, yes. Rural kids play with bugs and do all sorts of objectively horrible things to them. Because they are bugs. I am not trying to defend it, but yes, that's normal. |
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dbtng
sh.itjust.works
dbtng@sh.itjust.worksJoined: 2026-07-11 |
Oops.
I believe you've provided the most coherent take on this subject. Well done. |
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Valmond
lemmy.dbzer0.com
Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.comJoined: 2025-11-13 |
Yeah, just a typo. You'll notice I said "humanely" a sentence later.
I just thought it was funny, humans sure know how to kill things. |
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zzffyfajzkzhnsweqm
sh.itjust.works
zzffyfajzkzhnsweqm@sh.itjust.works Joined: 2025-02-07 |
Well, yes. Rural kids play with bugs and do all sorts of objectively horrible things to them. Because they are bugs. I am not trying to defend it, but yes, that's normal.
I agree it is more common than it should be. But to most humans this seems horrible. And it seems horrible because we all assume bugs can feel pain. It is not that kids treat them like that because they assume bugs do not feel pain. They do it despite that. Kids know this is not the same as cutting grass. |
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ultrafastsloth
lemmy.world
ultrafastsloth@lemmy.worldJoined: 2023-07-04 |
So what? Hasn't stopped us from farming mammals and birds, so why should it matter for animals that are even less cute?
Will sound weird but I find crickets kinda cute. They are just jumpy annoyingly noisy little fuckers. |
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tmyakal
infosec.pub
tmyakal@infosec.pub Joined: 2025-06-04 |
Don't much care about the sensations that crickets, or even lobster may have. On the other hand, I've spent a lot of time around cows. They know what's going on. I love beef, but I could not kill a cow. Pigs are fukin smart, and I eat a lot of pork. My perspective would certainly change if I wasn't able to buy my food in nice clean packages. I might eat less meat if I had to kill it, but I real...
Honestly, with the way the economy has been going, my family is eating all-vegatarian two or three days per week because it costs less. And on the meals where we do eat meat, fish and poultry are so much cheaper than pork and beef. The idiot running the US inadvertently forced me into a healthier diet. I guess that leaves more McDonald's hamburgers for him? |
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M137
lemmy.today
M137@lemmy.todayJoined: 2026-04-17 |
Well, because it has not really been proved at all, except if we accept some specific assumptions (about consciousness), and if you wiggle those assumptions just a tiny bit, trees also feel pain, and stones too. Maybe they do. Maybe they don't. But I guess that is why it's hard to settle down on things, like babies don't feel pain was so ingrained in people, until it wasn't. Personally I wonder...
No, stones don't feel pain because they aren't alive. They have no nervous system of any kind. Trees are alive, react to damage and even signal other nearby trees of danger. What we see as pain is obviously subjective, but that does in no way take away that any living being also feels pain. Pain isn't some thing that exists in itself, it's the brain or cells sending signals that something is damaging us. I seriously don't understand how you could think stones feel pain, they have nothing to make those signals. |
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M137
lemmy.today
M137@lemmy.todayJoined: 2026-04-17 |
We at least don't boil mammals alive, or bake them alive. If we find that crickets suffer from these things, we can find more humane ways of killing them. The article isn't arguing for not eating them, just killing them humanely. A bolt gun to a cattle's head is instant death. We can't go using tiny bolt guns on crickets, but perhaps asphyxiation or something. Asphyxiation is a painless form of...
We absolutely boil or bake mammals and other living things alive, and we do even worse things to them. Whole lives of suffering from issues from being bred for specific things to horrific living conditions and then killed in any manner of inhumane ways. |
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M137
lemmy.today
M137@lemmy.todayJoined: 2026-04-17 |
There's a leap between react and feel pain. Pain is a useful evolutionary trait that can help survive. For a plant which can't react quickly "pain" doesn't offer any value. Sure, they must have systems "know" there's harm, but without a way to quickly react it's detrimental.
Pain isn't some objective thing. You feel pain differently just within your own body, based on where and what kind of damage is being done. A plant reacting to damage is pain, just because it's not the same as us doesn't mean it isn't pain. We know plants react to damage, and that's what pain is, they even signal other nearby plants of danger. |
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offspec
lemmy.world
offspec@lemmy.world Joined: 2023-07-02 |
Pain isn't some objective thing. You feel pain differently just within your own body, based on where and what kind of damage is being done. A plant reacting to damage is pain, just because it's not the same as us doesn't mean it isn't pain. We know plants react to damage, and that's what pain is, they even signal other nearby plants of danger.
Recent studies show that plants literally respond to anesthetics in a way that is indicative of them preventing "pain" https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6215046. I just don't think plant life is as clear cut as people make it out to be. There are more studies showing things like related bean stalks grabbing the same poles but unrelated stalks avoiding sharing a pole together, or trees using root systems to provide nutrients to neighboring trees that would otherwise starve out. |
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PyroNeurosis
lemmy.blahaj.zone
PyroNeurosis@lemmy.blahaj.zone Joined: 2023-11-09 |
Honestly, with the way the economy has been going, my family is eating all-vegatarian two or three days per week because it costs less. And on the meals where we do eat meat, fish and poultry are so much cheaper than pork and beef. The idiot running the US inadvertently forced me into a healthier diet. I guess that leaves more McDonald's hamburgers for him?
McDonalds uses meat? Here I was convinced it was byproduct paper pulp. |
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CanadaPlus
lemmy.sdf.org
CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org Joined: 2023-06-12 |
That is odd as fuk. Really?
Yes, or so I've read. A quick search turns up the mentions, but no primary sources. Bugs are a weird edge case for consciousness. They can learn, plan and remember, and some like bees can do it a lot, but there's also cases of really automatic, mindless-looking behaviors they'll engage in. This old blog post goes into how fruit flies respond to all noxious stimuli with a specific anti-parasitoid maneuver. |
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CanadaPlus
lemmy.sdf.org
CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org Joined: 2023-06-12 |
any kind of subjective experience a plant has would be on a very long timescale Why would that be an issue? Are sloths less capable of pain because they are slower? And you'd have the weird situation where it's mind "grows" as it's thinking Why would be an issue with that? Kids brain grows and you have no issue with acknowledging their mind? It is not too hard to imagine? For sure, people ...
No, no it's not. |
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WoodScientist
lemmy.world
WoodScientist@lemmy.world Joined: 2024-09-06 |
Yes, or so I've read. A quick search turns up the mentions, but no primary sources. Bugs are a weird edge case for consciousness. They can learn, plan and remember, and some like bees can do it a lot, but there's also cases of really automatic, mindless-looking behaviors they'll engage in. This old blog post goes into how fruit flies respond to all noxious stimuli with a specific anti-parasitoi...
Yeah, and the problem is if you define "pain" too loosely, you'll end up concluding plants feel pain. A Venus fly trap can close in response to an insect landing on it. That's a response to a stimulus. Some plants release chemicals in response to damage or exhibit other responses that could be defined as pain. You have to be really careful when using "the ability to feel pain" as a litmus test for the ethics of eating a particular organism. If you define it too tightly, you'll conclude that it would be morally OK to eat a Neanderthal (something clearly conscious but also not human.) Too loosely, and you'll conclude the only moral choice is starvation. |
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kakler bitmap
lemmy.world
kaklerbitmap@lemmy.worldJoined: 2023-07-25 |
No. If it isn't moving, they don't really see them as prey to capture. I can sometimes trick the lizard with a dead cricket, but the spider is much more selective. I should mention I have a jumping spider, not the typical web-spinning spider.
Pics of your jumping spider plz.. |
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kakler bitmap
lemmy.world
kaklerbitmap@lemmy.worldJoined: 2023-07-25 |
I went through a lot of searches on euthanasia for small insects when my pet spider was struggling to get around and stopped eating. Basically, all the methods are slow, painful and scary... Except for one. Crushing is near instant, faster than they can register pain, just a spider one moment and a smear the next. It's probably the toughest way for you, but it's the fastest, least painful, and ...
I hope I don't ever have to euthanize one of my spiders, as the crush method does seem to be the most humane way to go about it. I can't imagine having to do that with a 10" tarantula |
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Bytemeister
lemmy.world
Bytemeister@lemmy.world Joined: 2023-07-29 |
Pics of your jumping spider plz..
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Valmond
lemmy.dbzer0.com
Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.comJoined: 2025-11-13 |
No, stones don't feel pain because they aren't alive. They have no nervous system of any kind. Trees are alive, react to damage and even signal other nearby trees of danger. What we see as pain is obviously subjective, but that does in no way take away that any living being also feels pain. Pain isn't some thing that exists in itself, it's the brain or cells sending signals that something is da...
That's because we do not understand consciousness (like at all) and you need consciousness to "experience" the world, and for example, pain. No consciousness, no pain. So to your question; one theory is that everything has a little bit of "consciousness" and it's just in the wildly complex brain it can actually express it so well, which means the whole universe is somewhat conscious. I personally don't think so, but I also know that that is just wishful thinking from my side and that I do not know anything more than that I have, a consciousness. HTH |
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