Anon discovers capitalism and for-profit post-secondary education.

2meirl4meirl

Don't look down on trade schools. The trades are a great way to make good money and not likely to be replaced by AI... If I was that age today, I would be very strongly looking at that type of work. Or something in the medical field.

Honestly as someone who spent ages getting into Tech and Linux. If I could do it again, Trades school would be my route. Constant work, no AI bullshit and you can run your own business very easily since your in high demand

Why is learning a trade only considered a last resort? Even on lemmy, I got downvoted to shit when I commented that people should focus less on degrees and more on industry certification, to have some actual value they can sell to potential employers. An electrician certification proves that you can do something. A bachelor's degree is just a checkbox to prove you went through the motions.

Relying on just degrees that virtually everybody else has is stupid. Anon has nothing that stands out from the soup of zero-experience job seekers.

I just got my PhD in December and still jobless. I agree with this sentiment.

Be me

Min wage job

Go to college for game programming in 2019, think ill be a game developer

Degree in '23

130k debt

Companies hiring Grok over actual programmers

Still only min wage job

MFW

An electrician certification doesn't mean a whole lot either. Both are just paper. Degrees with work experience and trades with apprentership time hold a little more value, but its still hit and miss.

If only Anon could find a career jacking off and watching TV.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with a skilled trade.

That said historical opinion on the quality of jobs they offered has lead to lower enrolment. Combined with an aging population has people aging out of the workforce creating demand in the “labour market”.

When the underlying reason to pursue any career is capitalisms incentive structure and you can see those wheels grinding it gives the jump on the bandwagon vibe of suggesting a trade the ick.

From personal experience there are two sides of the trades.

Do well entrepreneurs who earn a good living offering services and exploiting labour as any good capitalist does.

Commodified labour who is paid a “fair wage” for their skills but are generally not benefitting from the systemic demand of their skills beyond that.

It’s fair that the hand we’re dealt gives us a choice between a useless degree and a diploma that offers a job

It’s also fair that game is bullshit lol

Agree, I am 3 years into a bachelor's degree and like 9 months ago I realised I haven't really developed any meaningful skills. I have no idea what job I even could have anymore. I chose to pursue BBA because at the time it seemed like an easy way to get a decent office job, and at the beginning all the teachers assured that i'd find my specialty during the studies. Turns out, I do not want to see money, count money or think about money, I just want a job where I create something, do something. So after i'm done with this shit, I think I'll try to just get a source of income and work on a game or maybe just go to a trade school later

That's a big sandwich.

Trade school is a good idea. I wish I had the money to go back to school for that. Just pick a trade that's hiring.

Why is learning a trade only considered a last resort?

Because a lot of trades are pretty bad for your health. They require getting in potentially unsafe environments, dealing with substances or byproducts that can lead to cancers or other occupational diseases. They also require a lot more physical work. So of course people would prefer a cushy office job to trawling through crawlspaces lined with asbestos to plug in a light. Not to mention that a lot of trade jobs are not that great paid when starting out, the good pay comes with years of experience and until you get there you have to suffer through all the above. Sure some office jobs don't pay well starting out either but you just sit on your ass in a air conditioned office instead of nailing 2x4s in the hot sun for 8 hours.

People always ask this question but they never consider that there are actual valid considerations that make trade jobs unattractive compared to other jobs.

Edit: Oh also a lot of well paid trade people run their own companies which is an additional stress and a lot of people don't want to deal with that. My father is in trades and he ran his own company and I watched him age 20 years in the span of 5 due to all the stress and physical work he was doing. Running a company, even a small one is no easy job.

I don’t envy anyone trying to break into the games industry right now - you graduated at exactly the time all the investment left, layoffs hit, and jobs dried up.

It’s hard enough trying to find positions right now if you have years of experience, let alone as a fresh grad with none.

Depends on where you are in the world. Here you have to have a portfolio and working experience among other qualifications before you can take the assessment. You're not an electrician until you're on the register after all that.

Where are you that a trade doesn’t require 4 years of schooling and on the job training?

Most places won’t even let you do the schooling without being indentured and working for a minimum amount either.

They know you need both.

Personally, I’m pretty sure society is going to collapse (or at least begin to) within our lifetimes. Having strong knowledge of a practical skill will be priceless. Trade school is the way to go.

Of all the working class, they are often worked the hardest.

The pay part of that equation is dependent on where you are, and what trade you're talking about.

Where I am, trades generally get paid more than any office job you're going to get with just a random bachelors degree. And if you join one of the trade unions, especially one of the higher skilled industrial ones (so like electricians, pipefitters, millwrights, etc, as opposed to general labour or residential construction), your pay will be much higher than entry level office positions, and will likely stay higher than anyone who doesn't get themselves into an upper management type position.

Australia. And yes, you have to do on the job training, but that doesn't mean anything. The quality of the work experience is highly variable, so you could spend all of it learning, or all of it buying coffee and sweeping floors.

There should be more of a plan for young adults and society than "good luck," if they want it. The fact that it's basically chaos is insane to me.

I'm not saying that everyone who doesn't get an office job should immediately become a tradie. When you have nothing else to offer, just having some industry certificates is an advantage. Even if the certificate is unrelated to the job. My first job was assembly machine operator in a factory. My boss straight up told me that he hired me because of my Cisco and ECDL certs that I got in high school (for free because Europe).

If you don't get the office job you wanted, you've still opened up some options. Tradie life isn't glamorous, but it pays better than complaining on an internet forum.

And if you do get a job and it doesn't work out, you'll still have something to fall back on.

That’s just how everything works though?

Not every electrician is going to be working on panels, some just wire plugs instead, people specialize and are payed differently depending on the tasks. Very rarely do you find someone who does the entire trade regulary. They’re not going to be as good or fast as the ones that specialize, so it’s a delicate balance.

Just like every graphic artist may not be being Mona Lisa’s, they could be doing mangas or just heads or something.

Not all doctors are cancer specialists, some are just family doctors, that’s literally how every job and training works everywhere.

Do you think that everything you learn with a degree is used while working? Because they’re taught useless shit too.

Additionally these days anyone can cheat and get through college knowing damn near nothing. I think trade schools (i think) usually still require in person testing of the hands on skills.

When I started in construction 20 years ago minimum wage was $10, but most trades start at $15, this is for a laborer, apprentices got $18

After 4 years I was 33.50 an hour and still had room to move up. My direct supervisor was making $50, but he had a cash bonus to pay for his truck, instead of them giving him one.

Now minimum wage is $15 and most trades start at $21 and hour.

legally the company is supposed to pay apprentices 60% of the lowest paid journeyman, but they can hire people specifically to lower this -.- fourth years get 90%, it goes up each year. It forces a raise after finishing each schooling section.

USA is a shithole. If op lived in a developed country they would still have healthcare, vacation time, childcare, public transportation, and a better minimum wage.

My point is that by the time you have the paper, in either case, there is zero reliable proof that you can do either job. Real world work experience (successfully ran a sparky business, or successfully held a job for a few years) counts far more than the paper does.

I'm in the US and I never got any formal education in my trade (HVAC-R). Most of the techs here didn't. The few techs we've hired who did go to trade school came out of it with practically no knowledge which couldn't easily be taught on the job in a couple months. It seems like, for HVAC at least, the tradeschool programs teach enough that maybe you could manage some light residential work, but they barely touch on refrigeration, let alone the heavy commercial and industrial refrigeration we often do. When evaluating candidates, a tradeschool cert means less than a year of experience in some sort of maintenance position.

The same seems to be true of many other trades. At least in my state no certs are required or even beneficial to become a licensed plumber or electrician. Those liscenses are all based solely on years of experience. Technically you can become a master electrician solely with an electrical engineering degree and 0 years of experience but if you have that degree then you probably have better jobs available to you.

The same seems to be true of many other trades. At least in my state no certs are required or even beneficial to become a licensed plumber or electrician.

No certs necessary for locksmithing either.

This is not the topic

They're not wrong though.

If you can’t handle the trade, a company’s not going to keep you on, and the next company will look at your apprenticeship record and see your lack of training. From there you’ve flunked out.

The system protects itself. So yes if you have a ticket, you can atleast do something in that trade. A degree, IS just a piece of paper. A trade certificate shows you are competent and able to complete tasks. And be able to stick something through to completion (4 years). So yes, that “paper” holds a lot of information. The person while training also builds up a portfolio that they can use to show to future clients or employers of the work they did. A degree doesn’t allow any of this, or provide any information about the person. Other than they could “afford” to sit in a class for a few years.

To finish an apprenticeship you need to hold that job for four years dude… while working on the jobs that entire time…. they’ve met your arbitrary distinction lol.

Your point is, you apparently don’t know how an apprenticeship works.

I agree with you overall - the paper is important and it holds a lot of weight.

There's also a lot of hiring in smaller companies that overlooks certificates. On the job experience is weighted pretty heavily as well in the trades. If you can't handle it, you'll get fired eventually, but companies are happy to employ mediocre trade workers without certs.

I got my degree in 2014 at 22, and it still took scores of applications to get even a handful of interviews and one job offer for $17 an hour. I can only imagine what young people deal with today. I know it's only worsened in the last half decade or so.

I think that's called being an influencer.

You are assuming that the company cares about training, and not just a source of cheap labour. Apprentices are paid barely above minimum wage in Aus, and there are kickbacks to the companies to encourage employing them.

If it worked as you described (which is how it should work), I would absolutely agree with you, but the system in Aus happily churns out some absolute duds. Just like the uni system.

Also, for what its worth, many uni degrees include a year of paid internship, but there are similar issues that allow duds to sail through there as well.

Unfortunately not every trade is “regulated” the same either. Technically you can work my trade without a ticket, carpentry. But getting the ticket shows initiative as well as a bunch of other stuff to prospective employers or clients.

Theres also parents pushing their kids through their companies, but the schooling is also still a hurdle to get through. Got to pass the school work and the shop work and final test each year.

Fourth year school you had to make a desk in 32 hours. Every hour over that to 40 costs you points. It’s interesting because it forces you to decide if it’s worth time fixing something for the extra points for a few lost to time. So there’s lots of little hidden information in that trade ticket.

I still have that desk actually.

Technically you can work my trade without a ticket, carpentry. But getting the ticket shows initiative as well as a bunch of other stuff to prospective employers or clients.

I've worked in various blue collar/trade jobs and this is true almost all the way across the board. You can get hired on experience, but the certs make you invaluable.

Actually where I am, it’s a government enforced sponsorship, so both sides need to do things correctly.

A first year apprentice has to be paid 60% of the lowest paid journeyman, and if you don’t go to school every 24 months they kick you out. Last years get 90%.

Company has to hire you back on after completing the school stint, they need to fill out your blue book before firing you, so the next company can continue your training.

We also know loosely about other countries regulations, since we are certified semi internationally with our red seal program.

There's so many differences between countries on this that I think you both are arguing ineffectively.

In the US, there are union jobs that require apprenticeships and labor hours. There are also plenty of companies that will hire non-union workers with no certs. There's a lot of variance.

It’s still the same here, but the schooling and the cert make it so it’s not a piece of paper, and that’s universal. Places without schooling (looking at you USA) are the different ones. You can’t get the cert without schooling and passing a relevant shop test, so having a trade ticket holds a hell of a lot weight.

I would take someone with an EU or Aus cert over the USA, just because of how they do apprenticeships there.

I think most would agree it's better to require a certain amount of schooling for any trade.

The user you're arguing with is from Australia though.

There's a large variance in requirements depending on the country you're working in.

Porn film quality assurance

/j

Sitting on your arse all day, everyday is equally bad for your health. I'd probably argue even worse, you can't get PPE to help protect you from sedentary working conditions.

Nothing they’ve stated doesn’t also happen here, it’s why I asked where they were. If they were located in the US, they would partly have a point.

But Australias system is pretty good.

You kinda need to know how international certification works when you’re hiring and subcontracting with trades everyday. And they have certs from all over.

It’s definitely no where close to worse.

Depends on which trade and location you're comparing with. Things vary wildly in the trades.

Fortunately, the indie scene is still booming. If you went into games because you love it, you still have a fair shot at making something you want and finding an audience.

The effects of sitting on your arse can be mitigated with 30 to 40 minutes of daily vigorous exercise. There are a bunch of studies showing this. It's not remotely the same thing.