I can't tell if you're fucking with us or not. 😒

Huh, used to see this regularly, but have not seen it for a few years now...

Apart from static discharge, or a broken power supply, I don't think there's anything your computer could do to the SSD to actually break it. Worst case you just need to reformat it.

(I guess if it writes to it constantly it could wear out, but that's different than a hard shutdown)

If only we could be so lucky. They don't make Minutemans anymore.

My house flooded once, had like an inch of water in the living room, and my Minuteman ups was just sitting there beeping cos there was no power.

How many times have I clicked this combo by accident and logged off Mint... 🥲

Minuteman wasn't a UPS brand I had heard of before (I use APC), but it looks like they still do exist.

I'm ngl if I see this shit, I just hard power-cycle the machine. I ain't got time for that.

Hard power off dont care, and neither do modern filesystems.

I have less issues with that than i do shit getting slow at startup. I hunted down a PAM problem (that I didn't even configure) for a couple of days of my spare time. 5 minutes startup, i could feel my hail/nails growing between power on and Graphical.

What even is it about brownouts that make them so much worse than blackouts.

This actually got me to go track down the systemd service that has been responsible for being unresponsive and causing a 90-second shutdown delay way more often than it should.

That's what kill -9 is for.

oh, I thought you mean skipping the timeout that one time

databases may still care

A blackout is just a loss of power. Nothing complicated about it. There are obvious human and societal consequences, but as far as the infrastructure is concerned, a blackout usually means that protection devices have been tripped and the system has protected itself from greater damage.

A brownout means that the electric grid (or interconnection), for some reason, can't supply enough power to satisfy the demand, but protection devices haven't tripped yet. It can result in momentary power losses, drops in voltage, drops in frequency, or some generators getting desynchronized with the rest of the grid. If reactive loads (like HVAC motors) go offline momentarily, they can cause spikes in power consumption, which can overload circuits and trip safety devices.

A UPS needs to immediately switch to battery power when there are signs of an imminent power loss. A brownout might cause a consumer-grade UPS to switch on and off repeatedly, which the inverter circuit probably doesn't like.

This channel is run by a real civil engineer, he's released some great videos about the challenges of maintaining an electric grid.

I did. All the important things have time to gracefully shutdown now. (Except my for my rack of 4 DL360's, which need something a little more robust than a Walmart UPS. They aren't critical and only exist to handle weird one-off projects anyway.)

Sometimes the list is empty and I'm like, well there is nothing in the list shut down you idiot before I pull the damn power out.

How will we learn without testing? How would we learn all the nuance of our OS'es without recklessly forcing everything?

I am lucky enough to not have had any problems with calling a shutdown... just now with a problem I recently learned where my desktop treats shutdown as reboot. Definitely gotta look into that.

Recently I had to reboot to fix a zombie process (caused by a GPU crash, not sure if it was hardware or the driver). When shutting down systemd waited 2 minutes for all process to be killed and then another 2 minutes for the specific zombie process.

systemd-analyze ?

Fair

What about it? I admit that I don't know a great deal about systemd and all its subcommands - it took me a while to figure out how to disable that service properly, for example - but the manual seems to suggest that systemd-analyze is for startup processes, not shutdown.

I'll gladly take pointers on how to get it to say why a particular service hung on shutdown.

I hope my installation of Mint doesn't start acting up, because I don't want to learn whatever it is half y'all are talking about.

I just want it to work, and so far it has.

The only problem I've had is nvidia driver updates breaking Blender. So, I need to restore and tell update to ignore that one.

What happened when you called kill?

Absolutely nothing. kill -9, SIGCHLD to the parent which was pid 1, relogged my graphical session. After I rebooted I had the thought that I should have tried removing and reinserting the amdgpu module to avoid a reboot. I couldn't start new mpv processes so shit was pretty fucked lol.

Same, my shutdowns take about about two seconds, although suspend can sometimes take about six seconds (but normally one).

I'm on Gentoo, so it's probably a leaner install than most.

Oh no, I solved the problem: I uninstalled systemd. It's systemd who is ignoring things, such as the longstanding history of Unix and Linux (research what happened between systemd and screen, tmux, dtach).

Oh but it's not just stopping things, starting things is subject to the same issue also:

A start job is running for "wait for network to be available"

(attached to a network interface that is not necessarily connected at bootup)

Systemd is just ~special~.

What "underlying issue"? The one in systemd?

Everything works correctly (starting, shutting down under openrc / under sysvinit / manually / with killall)... except specifically systemd.

Dang. That's a good one.

This channel is run by a real civil engineer, he's released some great videos about the challenges of maintaining an electric grid.

Practical Engineering is awesome. For those that don't want to deal with YouTube, his content is available on Nebula as well.

I think I figured out my issue, literally a few minutes ago. I've never really dealt with ethernet, so I just learned my bios might have some sort of "wake up on lan" setting enabled that stops me from fully shutting down.

Why would I ever want something like that, though?

That's odd. I thought they died around the dotcom boom. Happy to be wrong today!

Why would I ever want something like that, though?

I should look into wake on lan for my media center so I wouldn't have to run downstairs to the living room to turn it on if I want to browse my photo/video collection.

I prefer keeping it off when it's not in use.

> doesn’t want to learn about Linux
> runs Gentoo

So I should wish for my computer to start acting up so I can have an educational experience attempting to fix it? No thanks, there's less frustrating ways to learn.

Also, if you're trying to go for a greentext-style formatting, put two spaces at the end of your first line.

https://askubuntu.com/questions/972215/a-start-job-is-running-for-wait-for-network-to-be-configured-ubuntu-server-17-1

What, not any of the other stuff?

Like the same locking wait message, but on startup because of wifi

I haven't gotten a startup wait in over 7 years but if I got it now I'd be pretty miffed.

Not onl that but they usually remove the init script as well, so unless you go for archives you no longer have a sane mechanism for starting and stopping the service.

Fortunately Debian has a orphaned-init-scripts package that can help alleviate that pain, as you can also use those scripts (or even better, openrc scripts) as skeletons to replace systemd service units.

Don't mask or disable the systemd service.

Edit /etc/netplan/01-netcfg.yaml and add optional: true to any devices that may not always be available.

That's absolutely systemd's fault. In any Linux system the only network interface that can (more or less) always trusted to be available and complete a full initialization sequence is lo Absolutely nothing else.

(The worse if you happen to have a WiFi that autoconnects but does it across the same SSID to different endpoints, but that one is wpa_supplicant's fault if I'm not mistaken. Systemd just makes it worse)

Just set the limit to something sane like 2³² seconds!

"Ask systemd what's wrong with systemd" feels like "ask Grok what is bad about child sexual abuse" lol.

For reboots pressing ctrl+alt+del at least 7 times will force a reboot

It depends on whether you're a server or PC. For PCs (as in personal computing) I agree systemd-networkd-wait-online.service should be disabled. For servers, I think it's plausible that you require a network to be at all meaningful, especially if there's some sort of database.

Unless the culprit is that one process permanently stuck in uninterruptible disk sleep, in which case the timer would just perpetually go up, and pressing 7x Ctrl-Alt-Del as you mentioned will simply shut down systemd and the kernel itself will start complaining (faulty hardware can cause this)

Due to what I call some quirks (but what other people call "good, sane, excellent design decisions"), you can set a hard timeout… that can be flatly ignored by systemd for various reasons that might or might not be obvious. In that case it will happily show you <current timer> / <timeout>, then move to <current timer> / <timeout * 2>, and so on.

Because that, for some reasons, makes a lot of sense to some people that are not me.