For a community that bills itself as

“General discussions about “science” itself

Be sure to also check out these other Fediverse science communities:”

And is full of news articles explaining science, having a biologist explain the science of sex biology is not a right fight for a general science community.

I saw that get removed because I tried to comment. I'm befuddled about it, too.

I am gonna need more context

It's there now. Or maybe a different science instance?

i think it was removed because the comments got way too heated. shoild prabably have been locked instead. doesn't explain the given reason though.

Yeah that's not a good reason to remove posts. Really hope we get an explanation.

as far as i can tell it's removed from !science@mander.xyz and remains present on !science@lemmy.ml

@Sal@mander.xyz Could we get an explanation on this. It seems unfair to have a good scientific article removed from the Science instance seemingly without good reason.

OP had the article posted in another community. I also cross-posted it to several trans and intersex communities myself. You can read it here.

I think this probably covers the explanation: https://mander.xyz/comment/27596923

The goal when creating this instance was to a place to discuss about scientific discoveries, post pictures of nature, and have a set of communities for this while avoiding polarizing content. If someone wants to discuss politics they can click on ‘All’ and go right to it. The scope is explicitly anti-politics because I do not want to moderate a politically charged or polarizing environment, and I know that many people with interests like mine will also appreciate such a space existing because they see enough pictures of Donald Trump and polarizing discussions elsewhere.

it seems like @Sal@mander.xyz thinks trans people are too polarizing for his instance. his comments come across as a very "don't disturb the status quo" kind of liberal. or as I like to call them, a Nazi collaborator. because if you aren't fighting the fascists in some way, then you're actively helping them.

The scope is explicitly anti-politics

real "i don't do politics, politics do you" energy here

Maybe I should do it. I should become the first person to make a truly unbiased, "no politics allowed" community. Posting is banned. It will just be a blank page. I look forward to their attentive and continuing viewership.

I look forward to them applying this consistently and banning all biology articles that mention anything relating to sexual reproduction and development. No? Just trans people? Weeeeird... Huh...

Agreed, by choosing to decide arbitrarily that trans people are political and shouldn't be discussed @Sal@mander.xyz is helping to further the fascist agenda against trans people. Lots of people don't know this but the number one way media alienates trans people isn't by making offensive jokes about us, or invalidating us directly, but by just erasing our existence.

That's what gamergate and not wanting queer people in video games and movies is about. They want us to stop existing in the minds of public people.

Probably articles about gayness and sexual orientation in general as well. It seems like something he would also have a problem with for being "political".

"Stop making it political!"

• People with the worst politics that don't want to be outed.

So is climate change political? What about vaccines or the shape of the earth?

I don't want to speak on behalf of Sal, but I would like to point out that I have seen a lot of posts on similar topics on Mander.xyz. I think it's worth waiting for Sal to comment on this before people get the pitchforks out.

I will also point out this from the sidebar of mander.xyz:

Please keep politics to a minimum. When science is the focus, intersection with politics may be tolerated as long as the discussion is constructive and science remains the focus. As a general rule, political content posted directly to the instance’s local communities is discouraged and may be removed. You can of course engage in political discussions in non-local communities.

This is something that I talked to Sal about before creating !publichealth@mander.xyz, and I was satisfied with the answer at the time. Everything intersects politics at some level, and those intersections are more prominent in some topics. Mander.xyz is an academic focussed instance, and it tries to carve out a space for constructive conversation the communities that are hosted on it. Sometimes it's not the topic that is the problem, but the quality of the specific article that is being posted.

Also, that particular community is supposed to be about 'General discussions about “science” itself', and if you look at the very old posts, they were meta discussions about the scientific method and scientific research. It seems to have taken a new life over the years though.

It's also possible that the comment section was the concern, and maybe it was easier to remove the post instead of carefully going through all the comments. I think Sal has earned a chance at speaking about this before the pitchforks.

@derHolz@sh.itjust.works You have an interesting account, not at all suspicious in any way...

:l

Not a good look.
Patiently awaiting Sal's response.
Prepared to be disappointed.

Thanks, this doesn't make the mod in question look any better.

And that news source is entirely written by scientists with relevant experience. If that's not suitable for a science community that allows something other than scientific papers, I don't know what would be

It's up, but from a different user. So the original takedown is still in effect

In the right contexts it can be a good reason. In this case I can imagine reports on the comments were flying left and right, despite the article itself having no issues. That might have provoked a removal, habitually to avoid needing to go into the comments section with a surgical needle to remove the transphobia, bigotry, off-topic comments and flame-baiting.

The post seems to have been re-upped by someone else, no comments, so I think (and you don't have to agree with me for any of this) there's no issue with the article itself. I'll be charitable and put the removal modlog comment as reference to the contained comments getting way too political for the site, rather than the article.

Some people's definition of "politics" is bewildering nonsense. Reality is not a team sport. Things that conservatives screech about can still be simple and true and kind of important to be state plainly, firmly, and often. Politely censoring discussion of whatever they're loudly wrong about is not avoiding the problem - it's running interference on their behalf.

I'm just so exhausted. We can't seem to talk about gender or sex without the default thought process going "politics" or "troll". Trans existence is taboo.

EDIT: Salamander explained they were very busy and this is an honest mistake. I appreciate them and what they do and I do not think they did anything malicious whatsoever. They have apologized.

I do think my point still stands though: the topic of sex or transgender people seems to make knee-jerk reactions much more common and I wish that were not the case. It's also a really common trolling tactic to post malicious links to espouse really shitty views under the guise of "learning". I empathize with the very real fact that many posts about those topics are designed to skirt along that "just asking questions" line of trolling, so this kind of moderating is really hard to do right.

If this isn't resolved I will no longer post science articles on Mander.

Eewww nope what a creepy choice I don't like it at all, I hope this was a misunderstanding.

edit ok who wants to make a new science focused instance?

Damn, stupid, commie, tankies censoring everything!! This is why we need to kick them off the fediverse!

rereads comment

oh

Well my point still stands!

Anything to do with a living being's rights become "political" because of who uses it as an answer to attempt to shut down discourse and shape it around their masked bigotry

If I disagree with it or don't like it, it's political.

Also, if you say trans rights are political in attempt to push it out the realm of acceptable discussion, that is an offensive action, expect people like me to treat it as an act of war because it is.

Climate change should not be political. But it unfortunately is.

My main account used to be on mander, and politics is kinda a general but subtle problem on mander. (I eventually decided not to have a "main" account at all after I realized how much creepy surveillance is on the internet -- little to do with mander's politics.)

Sal tries to prevent the political circus from taking over the instance, but there's a tension because the political circus is increasingly escaping containment and actually effecting people's lives. While I'm not exactly sure what Sal was thinking with this particular incident, I think it's hard to disagree that LGBT has become a part of the political circus and culture war.

Like, let's just lay it out at a very high level: LGBT people, like everyone, are weird. Unlike most other weirdness they're organized and vocal about their weirdness because of a long history of very real persecution. The LGBT community works very hard to "build allies" (make disliking their weirdness socially taboo) because that protects them from further persecution. This is wise in a sense: It's a peaceful mechanism of self defense. The issue is as polarization increases people can become confused about which side is the aggressor -- even if they know overall the LGBT were persecuted, they may view that has historical, or they may think the response is disproportionate, or some other similar view. This frustrates a lot of LGBT people who have personally experienced these persecutions because they know it's not over, LGBT won't be a non-issue anytime in the foreseeable future, and are rather fond of their communities. That said, I think the LGBT community knows it's become a political element. Debatable whether they're political pawns being used to seize power or a political faction in their own right.

I can't tell you whether Sal made the right call or not. I don't know where people should draw the line for apart of politics or not apart of politics, but I don't think it's unreasonable to want to step away from the political circus. Further, dbzer0 certainly doesn't have much room to criticize other instances who choose to moderate their communities, even if you don't fully agree on where to draw the line.

I'd advocate giving @Sal@mander.xyz some grace with these judgements. They're hard to make, and if nothing else @TRAHR@quokk.au is very clearly a very political account who probably shouldn't be posting on mander in the first place.

I am not a “political account”, I am a trans person trying to raise awareness of the challenges and few successes we are having in being able to exist.

Just as a I post news which can often be political, I also post movies, science, sports, and other content as I find it.

Well, if you don't see how that aspect of yourself could be seen as political, I can see why you don't think you're political, but you're clearly very passionate about a topic that most other people recognize as somewhat political. There's nothing wrong with that in itself, but I think you can see a conflict like this was fairly likely if you're regularly posting indiscriminately with no little knowledge of the instances or communities you're posting in. It's not the end of the world nor is it an attack on you or your passions. You'll either learn to self moderate or choose different communities.

Now, if you don't mind I'm gonna step away from this conversation before an over eager mod/admin bans my ass.

I posted a highly scientific article written by a scientist in a science community.

Let us hope they do, maybe you will learn to self moderate in the future.

Yeah. Feels like the right move would be to lock the post and remove the offending comments, rather than remove the whole post. The post itself is perfectly in bounds for the community. I also hope there’s a good explanation, but I’m prepared to be let down.

The two genders, political and straight. Brilliant illustration of how that translates to bias.

People no longer understand the difference between humanity and politics

While I’m not exactly sure what Sal was thinking with this particular incident, I think it’s hard to disagree that LGBT has become a part of the political circus and culture war.

of course its part of the culture war and you obviously dont know what you talking about if you think it makes talking about it negative at all unless you are on one of the spectrums advocating against it. also not elaborating on why to label it part of "political circus"?

The LGBT community works very hard to “build allies” (make disliking their weirdness socially taboo) because that protects them from further persecution. This is wise in a sense: It’s a peaceful mechanism of self defense. The issue is as polarization increases people can become confused about which side is the aggressor

current status quo in most places trans are being targeted, whats confusing about who is the aggressor part? its more taboo to say you are pro-trans rights in most places than not

the LGBT community knows it’s become a political element

due to politicians dangling over in their front how they will control over and what they should a have a right of, its not something it "became" you make it sound like its something recent which you clearly would be ignoring past history

I can’t tell you whether Sal made the right call or not.

which is why other people are asking for an official statement coming from Sal, but your whole comment goes around trying to defend what happened based on your definition of "political circus" not established within your comment other than throwing it over at the whole LGBT movement or just trying to avoid using the word trans while being shy to say you think its fair for a minority not affecting others lives other than misinformation being spewed on of them and hateful targetting

Debatable whether they’re political pawns being used to seize power or a political faction in their own right

mask slipping off? its fine if you admit you didnt notice the bias you are holding and try to learn from it but breaking down your comment makes it clear your intention whether on purpose or not

if nothing else @TRAHR@quokk.au is very clearly a very political account who probably shouldn’t be posting on mander in the first place

ends with calling out the person who is reporting possible power trip for clarity and to see whats going on as in the wrong here simply for being trans, a lot of labels to throw at trans people and not use the word a single time and end your comment with targetting one and labeling them political just for being themselves, the article posted in question was written by actual scientisfs and gone through using the scientific method, it seems perfectly fit for the community it was posted on

People who want to avoid talking about trans people or orientation because it's "political" are revealing where they really stand in regards to political alignment.

I don't predict @Sal@mander.xyz responding to this unless he's willing to acknowledge it as a mistake. I think he knows that his position would make him very unpopular in the fediverse, where most places emphasize trans rights and visibility. It's especially disappointing because he chose to remove real science in favor of his own political bias.

If bad comments are enough to remove a post, then bad actors can remove any post by spamming it with bad comments.

Put this on the Mander sidebar

Man, this response sucks. I put so much effort into trying to politely explain why this situation arose while making it clear that I'm cool with LGBT people, and I still get this demonization for not mindlessly siding with one side. Yeah, I did call out the person who posted in violation of a communities rules & guidelines then came running to dbzer0 to stir up drama -- that's wildly inappropriate behavior.

Whatever, y'all can stay apart of your tribe and blind yourself to any other. I don't think it's wise, but you're clearly not gonna listen to me.

Whelp. Idk how to respond in a way that doesn't provoke more conflict over things I don't think we should be fighting over.

So I'm disengaging.

I apologize if it came across that way, but that wasn't my intent.

[Removing my comment because it appears to be an innocent mistake]

yes yes and yes.

it's why trying to ban topics on the basis of being "political" is actually insane. we live in a world where the basic concepts of facts and shared reality are increasingly polarized and politicized. Science as a concept has become political.