The ritual is done at least 20 times, with months or years between each session, taking 10 to 30 minutes. The ones that pass through it all are accepted as warriors and future leaders

https://pib.socioambiental.org/en/Povo:Sateré_Mawé

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawé_people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraponera_clavata (bullet ant)

You known what? I'm okay with not being a warrior or leader of the Sataré-Mawé.

Hazing but it's indigineous

Hazing is corn syrup to the fresh fruit of pain based rituals.

Hazing, like many ideas and rituals that "survived" into the lives of inside people, is an important ritual, stripped of all the things that made it real and important. Pain tolerance changes everything about a person. The experience of physical pain and emotional pain, and the tolerances of each, are intertwined.

I would not want a leader who is so averse to discomfort that they avoid important things we must do, because they are scared of the discomfort. I do not want a leader who is so scared of discomfort that they sacrifice the group just so they themselves do not have to face discomfort.

The world hurts. To experience this pain in a controlled way instead of an uncontrolled way, while the people who love you and care for you and would sacrifice their lives for you, take care of you and help you through it, is practice for life. It is a bonding experience that strengthens the whole group and all individuals in it.

Hazing is people who don't know you, hurting you and bribing you. It's a great metaphor for capitalism and all its predecessors, and what they do to literally everything.

Lonnie musk and Donnie trump were hazed. They would sacrifice a child rather than go a month without AC. They are not suitable leaders.

Precisely. Yesterday, as I watched a tv program that recorded one of these tucandeira rituals, the pajé (spiritual leader) explained that the ritual was to prepare the children and adolescents for the pains that the world will throw at them, that if they want to be warriors, leaders and represent their people outside, they must be able to endure those and other pains.

The boy taking the ritual, which was from his own free will, no less, looked like he was 11yo; he endured to the end, possibly his first session. Too bad the show didn't follow the day after the ritual

Hm, weird, most people I know didn't experience some fucked up ritual like that and still are able to deal with the pains of the world. In fact, the people that did experience a large amount of pain in their youth are the ones that are less stable.

Oh, and let's not pretend an 11 fucking year old kid could properly consent to this. The boy was told by everyone around him if he wanted to be a leader he had to do it, at an age where kids are pretty impressionable and also are dying to make an impression. That's just downright abuse.

I prefer the initiation ritual where an older cousin sneaks you your first beer at a family gathering.

Oh, did you grow up in an indigenous community that practices this?

Those kids you're talking about, did they experience growing up in an indigenous community that practices this? Are you talking about these rituals, or are you randomly talking about people who hurt a bunch?

Because it sounds like you're speaking from an outside perspective, about things that aren't the topic at hand. Weird how you think that opinion is relevant.

No, no. You see, anything that would cause a privileged modern person discomfort is abuse. This includes the idea that the world is a tough place, the idea of anti-fragility as a mental adaptation to it, or even useful negativity; the idea that it could take actual blood, sweat, and tears to achieve something, they’re all abuse. /s ig.

That's really not what unknownuserunknownlocation@kbin.earth is saying or the point they are making, which is a fair one. Kicking it out of way by waving a big "cultural relativism" sign doesn't do anything to address it.

If one was so inclined, one could even argue that whole idea that an 11 year old indigenous boy is somehow more grown up and "a man" is essentially the same as the racist outlook that considers black boys to no longer be kids but dangerous men when they get closer to their teens.

Indigenous people, living immersed in the natural world, deciding that an 11 year old is old enough to decide on their own start a journey into adulthood while surrounded by adults who care deeply for them,

Is absolutely nothing like a racist white person deciding that an 11 year old black child should be ripped from their family and treated as an adult against their will.

That's such an insane comparison that your intentions come into severe question.

unknownuser's argument is that the boy couldn't consent because he'd be surrounded by people telling him that the only way to be a leader is to take the ritual. The quote, verbatim:

The boy was told by everyone around him if he wanted to be a leader he had to do it, at an age where kids are pretty impressionable and also are dying to make an impression

If that's all it takes to remove consent, then we might as well isolate every children from other people.

I sincerely doubt anyone in the group would be telling him "you should totally do it! It'll be awesome!", but rather that he better think twice before doing it and what to expect in the immediate aftermath of the ritual, not in a "you might feel" but in a "you will feel" way, because those stings are no joke. I wouldn't be surprised if the boy even went so far as to take a single sting sometime before the ritual just to know how deep in shit he'd be.

Oor, hear me out, ideas around morality and consent in the more nuanced-filled space of what would be considered psychological damage versus mental training are undoubtedly biased by the way any observer is raised and so impossible to claim that they can have absolute moral judgments placed on them without taking cultural relativism into account.

They made the big bold claims and moral accusations first.

Weird how you think that you have to experienced something to talk about it. Do people have to experience rape to be allowed to talk about it in your opinion? Do people have to experience a war to be allowed to talk about it? Do people have to experience depression to talk about it?

while surrounded by adults who care deeply for them

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Many people do fucked up things to others believing it's in their best interest. Still doesn't excuse it.

anything that would cause a privileged modern person discomfort

When finished, the boy's hand and part of his arm are temporarily paralyzed due to the ant venom. In addition to suffering severely extreme and intense pain, he may hallucinate and shake uncontrollably for days.

Pick one.

You shouldn't convince kids to torture themselves, and"the way they were raised" is no excuse. Bold statement, I know.

They would sacrifice a child rather than go a month without AC not doing it.

ftfy

Hm, or maybe you should allow them to partake in mental training because it could help them overcome challenges more efficiently in the future, making the trade-off worthwhile. I know the ideas of conditioning and building tolerance might be foreign to you, but they’re not foreign to everyone. This isn’t settled science or anything, so for the moment you might have to take a seat down from your high horse and accept the possibility of alternate views existing with plausible arguments behind them.

Well if I must pick between:

• an excerpt of my sarcastic strawman meant to roast the mentality of the type of person I have pegged you for (based you on your own initial strawman) and not a perfectly accurate characterization of the original scenario itself, and
• accepting a somewhat sensationalized temporary aspect of a pain ritual meant as mental conditioning available to sovereign people…

“Picking” becomes silly, your false dichotomy is a sham. Pointing out differences between similar and adjacent concepts used for different purposes doesn’t actually prop up yours, it just shows I took liberties to roast people like you, because I think people like you also do the same over lesser situations.

As a side note on nuances being ignored here, the one source here says days, others say hours. I’m sure enough it varies by person and actual dosage, as always. This kind of rough characterization and cherry-picking for the sake of impact should be expected from all sources as a foundation of critical thinking. Males in that tribe willingly go through that ceremony 20+ times in their lifetime.

Pearl-clutching your way into validating pain-avoidance as a priority worth pursuing over other practical aspects of life might be the way for you, but it’s not watertight enough to impose on others.

https://www.theguardian.com/childrens-books-site/2013/jul/17/steve-backshall-interview

Pearl-clutching your way into validating pain-avoidance as a priority worth pursuing over other practical aspects of life might be the way for you, but it’s not watertight enough to impose on others.

Perfection

Let's put that person outside for a few months and see how they do

Yes

I think anyone who has experienced those things has more standing to talk about them, and they should discount the opinions of those who haven't, especially when those opinions are completely opposed to everything they learned from the experience. On top of that, they immediately have more standing than both the rapist and the oligarch sending them to war, before they even open their mouths

oR Do yOu tHiNk a rAPiSt sHoULd bE LisTeNeD tO oN ThEiR oPInIOn aBoUt RaPe?

Lol, you say not everyone shakes for days, the Wikipedia article doesn't say that either, it says may shake for days. The irony of indirectly accusing others of not thinking critically and not even reading properly in the first place.

Pearl-clutching your way into validating pain-avoidance as a priority worth pursuing over other practical aspects of life might be the way for you, but it’s not watertight enough to impose on others.

The mental gymnastics here are astounding. There's a difference between not doing pain avoidance and a fucking torture ritual. Or is that another sarcastic strawman again? (I guess I shouldn't takes your texts seriously?)

I'm not imposing anything. If someone who is fully capable (read: adult) of making the decision and decides to subject themselves to a torture ritual like that - their decision. I have a problem with kids at an impressionable age being pressured into it. And before you come up with "they're different" or something: they're still... What do you call them again? Oh, right, humans! And humans' brains are only fully developed at age 25. Age 12 isn't even at the fucking halfway point.

the ideas of conditioning and building tolerance might be foreign to you

I feel some very strong projection vibes here. Also, conditioning yourself to pain doesn't work by going from zero to one of the most painful things known to man.

I mean, there were (are?) Alternative cultures that see pedophilia favorably. I'm not exactly about to warm up to that, either.

oR Do yOu tHiNk a rAPiSt sHoULd bE LisTeNeD tO oN ThEiR oPInIOn aBoUt RaPe?

Talk about strawmen.

OK, so the rape victim tells you that some people deserved their rapes. Do you stand by your point? Or is knowledge and logic maybe just a slight bit more important by chance?

Sounds like Frank Herbert knew about that when he wrote Dune.

Yeah that was you. That was you making strawmen. I was doing you. I put on glasses and big teeth and chalk and was standing like a fool.

Omg not the vibes - oh my lord, a whole zero!?! To sixty?!! 😦

Dial 911 and ask to speak to the president.

😱😱😱

If you don't see how there's a similarity in the othering of non-white boys leading to consider them to be grown up earlier, I think you might be falling prey to some racist bias yourself.

I'm all for taking context into consideration but biology doesn't care about cultural relativism, an 11 year old human boy can't make fully-informed decisions. That was the point being made and the point stands.

It has nothing to do with cultural relativism and everything to do with who is doing the considering and why. Gtfo with that racist bias shit, while comparing indigenous rituals to one of the most odious crimes of "post slavery" american racism.