I just had a muffin for breakfast. Quite delicious!

More I am saying you can't put a $ value on a thing if you don't know what the thing sells for. If I buy something and it says I saved $12 instead of yelling me the price I can't say it costs $12.

People still have money for brand new cars?

It’ll be fine. EV batteries don’t just have the failure mode most people expect where it just stops working one day. They lose capaicy over time. Even then, they trends down to settling at 70-80%, not zero.

Used Fiat 500e

Fix batteries, we need affordable battery replacement, otherwise electric cars are just a gadget.

No, but banks will still give loans for 8 years.

Is there a need though? At least according to this article, they last a lot better than what I was told they would 10 years ago. Combined with better battery tech, better charging systems and more awareness about how to care for your battery now compared to 10 years ago, I'm not convinced it's actually a problem, but more something for the oil lobby and rednecks to point to while crying.

But it's the much more environmentally friendly way of owning literally anything.

Sorry, what? Can you elaborate on how hanging on to a paid off car and just performing maintenance is a sunk cost fallacy?

I firmly believe that in the next 5 years, prices for petroleum powered cars will drop like a rock.

I'll start a business importing them then. They're still very popular in most of eastern Europe, including Estonia. We love used cars that have depreciated like rocks here.

You made your own point. In 10 years the 'new' battery tech will make the current model cars almost irrelevant. Standardize the batteries and mandate replaceability. Phone companies figued that out a long time ago but ditched it in favor or profits.

So, a couple of things: Personally, never been afraid of degradation much, outside of the old Leafs of course. What's always scared me about EVs is the chance of a sudden battery failure. Less and less of a problem now that individual cells can be replaced on many models rather than replacing a battery pack that costs more than the car (yes, used battery packs are an option, but IMO a bad middle ground between cell-level replacement vs new pack - you don't get the warranty of the new pack or the cheapness of individual cell replacement), but it's still an issue EV owners seem to mind, because there are TONS of 6-7 year old EVs for sale super cheap. Because the battery warranty is 8 years.

And secondly, I wasn't actually trying to say anything about having to be worried about the risk of failure in the parent comment, I was talking about the massive depreciation you take on if you buy a new or lightly used EV (because people are afraid of batteries). Meaning I find it to be a great deal to buy one that's already near the end of that battery warranty, you save tens of thousands vs getting a 2 year old one (which itself is, yes, much cheaper than a brand new one).

Our uber driver was talking about how jealous he was of China's system. They swap out the batteries. Why isn't there a system where you keep a spare and just swap it out?

That's not entirely true. There's still risk of sudden battery failure. Otherwise these guys wouldn't have a business. Fortunately: Those guys do have a business and many others exist. For a couple grand at most you can get many battery packs repaired to their former glory. On a car where the battery pack is easy to remove, it should be fairly cheap assuming they can get cells somewhere (like other dead battery packs). The one in the video was done for 1€ as a joke, but that may very well be the true material cost of repair for an early Tesla battery since their cells are roughly the same as in an e-cigarette, 18650.

It IS increasingly rare with newer EVs, but it's a failure mode where the dealer will tell you to fuck off and pay anywhere between 20 and 70 thousand unless in warranty and for some manufacturers (Mercedes) the warranty terms have been updated to say that if the battery is more expensive than the residual value of the car, warranty will only cover it up to the value of the car.

All lithium-ion cells die one day. Majority will live a long happy life, but lifetime is not predictable on an individual level, only on the level of hundreds or thousands of units. I used to refurb laptops. I have the most experience with Macbook batteries, which I find to be very high quality for a laptop battery. I've tested at least a thousand of those, maybe 2-3 thousand.

Apple says 1000 charge cycles is what one should last - if you manage to get over 1000 cycles within the warranty period and it drops under 80% capacity, bad luck, you're not getting a warranty replacement. If it's under 1000 cycles and within the warranty period, it's covered. I've seen one or two that had above 80% capacity on as many as 2800 charge cycles. Many that were over 1000 but still good, many that had dropped barely under 80% in 200, 500 or maybe 1500 cycles... But I've also seen a couple that were in double digit cycle count and had <=30% capacity left. Usually those were also swollen.

It's just impossible to predict longevity on a single battery pack with proper accuracy.

Not bad, a little bit short on range (320Km) but in the right direction. Thanks for the suggestion!

I don't follow. You don't go to McDonalds and do a home cooked cheaper meal at McDonalds. You aren't charging at home. You're charging at a network that isn't yours. The price of your home electricity is irrelevant. The price is what they say per kWh at their facilities.

The batteries are fine, it’s the right wing propagate surrounding them that needs to stop.

And? We went from 10 mpg sedans to 35 mpg ones in my lifetime. Improvement impacts every developing technology over time.

So the old ones are just e-waste? We could at least recycle a big chunk of ice cars

What in the hell are you talking about? EV batteries don’t go bad as fast or frequently as you seem to think. When they do, they are highly recyclable.

No we don't. Current batteries last longer than the rest of the car. If what you need is a battery without a car, you can have that anytime.

And if you don't know the rate on that network you can't put a value on the "free" Kws. Like if your went to McDonalds with a coupon for a free burger, but you can not find out how much a burger is you can't really put a dollar value on that coupon.

50kWh cost $31.50, so we do know the rate.... So the rate is $1.59 per kW.

It’s an older type of EV, early Nissan leaf tech, but with battery cooling so it ages a LOT better.

The Chevy volt (I think it’s called amperage overseas) is larger but is a series hybrid. Plug in for 40 miles on battery then the generator kicks in and it’s a regular hybrid. Enormous trunk. Bigger car though.

If you want something like that with a softer suspension and more grown-up feel, consider the Honda clarity plug in hybrid. They were great, my ex had one. They killed them because Honda had no idea how to market what puts a Camry to shame.

EVs scale battery risks down not up. An iPhone battery will age but remember, the EV has a higher capacity, so the pull is lower. Also, by the time it hits a used car lot, the degradation on the battery is pretty much leveled off. It’s exponential decay, not linear. You MIGHT have to swap a cell. That’s it. That’s much cheaper than a timing issue or a transmission eating a grenade.

You know what’s funny is my sister has my old Nissan leaf and it’s still going. The range isn’t great but for a comfortable grocery getter that handles great in the Ohio winter and will likely kill a fucking panzer in a head on collision, it’s prefect. Her family has beat on that thing in ways that would bring shame to the Chrysler minivan we grew up with in the early 90s. (Dad playing mechanic killed it. It wasn’t Chrysler that killed that wood-paneled tardis. It was dad.) she has 2 child seats in the back and it’s basically a rolling bunker (back seats anyway. Frontal offset isn’t stellar on this model)

I got it used as a cheap way to get to and from college and it was the only way I could afford college. But even then, that leaf will not die! It’s on its second suspension, its covered in little kid ick, the damn touchscreen was clobbered by what I assume involved the autistic nephew, but otherwise it will not die.

Meanwhile the bolt I replaced it with only asks for tires.

These things are the only remotely practical way to do pritvate transportstion.

Hey if it works for her, that's great. I've said it elsewhere in the thread, but battery lifetime is completely unpredictable on an individual level. You COULD develop a bad cell even very early in its life, effectively completely disabling a battery pack that hadn't even really degraded much yet... Or you could also get an absolute peach that lasts 3x longer than the average battery of its kind before the device (vehicle) it's in gets retired with the battery still functioning. Anything in between could happen too.

And my experience with non-car lithium batteries which I've touched a LOT of, has been that on average, degradation does tend to level off. For Macbooks it was around 80-90% capacity where it would usually level. Meaning with that Leaf being as old as it is, I would expect degradation to have slowed down on that.

Every car is a risk. Batteries are a lower risk than transmissions. if you are willing to accept the risk of a transmission, you’ll be fine with a battery.

Ha! But I can replace a timing chain or repair a modern automatic transmission, for not much money. The cell replacement would in fact cost me much more money because I am NOT touching those voltages.

But also, that's exactly why I'm saying it's best to get an EV that's actually used, not one that's near-new. The depreciation hits hard for about 4-5 years, not one or two and by the time the model's been out for multiple years, there are donors to get cells from. They're much cheaper than new at 1-2 years, but they're DIRT cheap 5 more years after that.

By the time the average driver understands they need a timing chain replacement, their interference engine has already digested their entire top end.

Don’t fear voltage. Because it’s the amperage that turns you into a donor.

You want an EV that came off its first owner. Depreciation was absorbed by the first owner, replacement parts are pentiful, the battery has done all the evil is is statistically likely to.

Honestly, short of buying Musk’s dumpster Delorean there’s no bad options at that point.

By the time the average driver understands they need a timing chain replacement, their interference engine has already digested their entire top end.

Ah yeah, I'm not very average as a car owner anyway. I hear a noise, I'm investigating. So far my current car, notorious for timing chain (tensioner) failure, has made chain noise on cold startup exactly twice, both times when oil level was low and that leak's been fixed luckily. Though for that engine it's been said that a cold startup chain rattle for a few seconds is OK, warm startup chain rattle is not. But with oil level in spec, mine doesn't even do it cold.

Don’t fear voltage. Because it’s the amperage that turns you into a donor.

I = U/R, there are no amps without volts. Average car I'm looking at has 300-400 kW peak power, so the battery pack is capable of outputting at least that. And with P=U*I at say 400 volts, 400 kW means the battery pack needs to be capable of putting out 1000 amps. If we were talking about a 400 volt source that quickly drops down under load, we could talk about "amps kill", but with a high power battery pack, the amps aren't exactly limited by anything other than the voltage and your body's resistance.

You want an EV that came off its first owner. Depreciation was absorbed by the first owner, replacement parts are pentiful, the battery has done all the evil is is statistically likely to.

Nah, I want one that came off its second or third owner. I see too many 1-3 year old ones on sale from their first owner. Too new, not depreciated enough.

Honestly, short of buying Musk’s dumpster Delorean there’s no bad options at that point.

Well, tons of them actually. Many of the cheaper ones don't have heat pumps - nonnegotiable for me in an EV due to the shitty climate I live in and the fact that I'd like to enjoy a decent amount of range even if I can't preheat it. Then there's ones that otherwise sound good on paper, but the entire infotainment system is two touchscreens. I want physical controls. I'm very demanding of my cars in certain respects and it's actually easier to meet most of my criteria in an older car than a newer one, which is my biggest frustration with EVs. Give me a 2005-2012 Mercedes S-Class but as an EV and I'll be happy until the end times. Or even better, a post-facelift L322 Range Rover as an EV. That should be a treat if there's no Ford engine to go wrong lol

There are 30 years old fuel cars. You telling me electric cars can't las 30 years?

You don’t seem to know how much it costs to run a car for 30 years. Total ownership cost or yearly cost: show us your math.

My old leaf had a heat pump and while it was nice, the newer EVs have such dense batteries they don’t really need that anymore. My bolt does fine in the Ohio winters. I do hate the Chevy brakes and suspension but otherwise it’s great.

Hmm we do have slightly colder winters here, but not catastrophically colder.

I do remember earlier EVs losing about ~50% of their range in the winter here though. Not sure how it is with more modern ones without heatpumps.

It’s not the heats causing that. Batteries lose range when cold. Modern batteries have climate control and simply using them also heats them up. Winter driving reduces range on gas cars too.

The range in winter is lower but not as severely as it used to be. My eatimated range year round fluctuated between 250 and 180 miles and that’s fine.

The reason is because there is no standard shape and plug for an EV battery. Chinese company Nio has swappable batteries but good luck getting all other car companies to adopt the Nio system. Getting everyone to agree to one common format is the main problem. But swappable batteries are in fact not very desirable though because nothing beats home charging, and by the time you need a charge, you also need a meal.

I don't think you'd need to have every car as swappable, you would just need your own and carry a spare. Maybe have 3 batteries? One that you charge at home and then swap out as needed for the 2 in the car. Just some ideas.

What problem are you trying to solve?

Longer distances on a charge?

Most people eat 3 meals a day so a charge only has to last about 4 hours of driving. And anyone willing to pay for and carry an extra battery is better off having it plugged in, which simply makes the car a more expensive, longer range EV, and there are plenty of those already.