cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/52828517

By: @DrawingDramatic1641

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1wi4yjh/literally_how_every_conversation_goes/

Did... did USA guy convert to Democratic Socialism by the end of the thread?

-- not that there's much of a difference where it matters.

All this on the r/China subreddit btw

Happens all the time on some instances of Lemmy too.

If this was how the average anti-China poster was on Lemmy and Reddit it would be a marked improvement compared to the blatant aggressive racism, chauvinism etc. of current.

Fair point. I see the extreme vitriol as more a response to rising sympathies and an erosion of ground reactionaries can stand on ideologically. Dialectics and all that.

Definitely a contributing factor but I wouldn't be so sure that it's the core or main driver given the long history of orientalism etc.

Calling student protests "traitors of the nation" and imply they deserved to be run over by tanks is certainly a position.

Also a fair point, likely a secondary aspect.

student protests

Very reductionist.

run over by tanks

Not really what happened it was more akin to rioters clashing with the military (standing in as riot police).

LOL only missed the part where as soon as they say they’re Chinese they’re hit with that stupid bot comment. Or “keep getting paid by your daddies Putin and Xi”… and it like, seems like it’s a joke, but they’re actually 100% serious.

Like there are random people online that think very obvious human comments from other people online are literally anti-western propaganda and that these random users are PAID FOR. I wish that were reality. sign me tf up today.

Also really funny some people think Tiananmen was a massacre, to this day. I don’t even think CIA wikipedia claims that anymore

I've seen a lot of pictures from the day both before and after the military intervention. I haven't seen evidence characterising it as anything other than student-led protests, which of course were joined by other civilians. Do you have any?

BTW I find it disheartening when other leftists don't seem to understand the concept of critical support, and act like they have to justify anything and everything a government does simply because they otherwise support it. This only drives away others who are open to e.g. opposition of NATO, but not willing to deny human rights abuses in support of that goal. Just seems hypocritical and like you don't actually stand for any values instead of another flavor of tribalism and nationalism.

I recommend the Tian'anmen Protests Reading List. It was far more muddy than a student protest. There were workers protesting Deng's reforms, liberal students protesting the socialists system, and CIA-backed operatives sparking discontent. On the day of June 4th, riots around Beijing clashed with the PLA, while the square itself was later evacuated peacefully.

I'll take a look regardless - but "peacefully evacuated"? Oh come on.

Wikipedia agrees with the communists on that part:

Government officials have long asserted that no one died in the square in the early morning hours of 4 June, during the "hold-out" of students' last batch in the south part of the square. Initially, foreign media reports of a "massacre" on the square were prevalent, though subsequently, journalists have acknowledged that most of the deaths occurred outside of the square in western Beijing. Several people who were situated around the square that night, including former Beijing bureau chief of The Washington Post Jay Mathews[i] and CBS correspondent Richard Roth[j] reported that while they had heard sporadic gunfire, they could not find enough evidence to suggest that a massacre took place on the square.

Student leader Chai Ling claimed in a speech broadcast on Hong Kong television that she witnessed tanks arrive at the square and crush students who were sleeping in their tents, and added that between 200 and 400 students died at the square.[269] Ling was joined by fellow student leader Wu'er Kaixi who said he had witnessed 200 students being cut down by gunfire; however, according to Mathews, it was later proven that he had already left the square several hours before the events he claimed to have happened.[212] Taiwan-born Hou Dejian was present in the square to show solidarity with the students and said that he did not see any massacre occurring in the square. He was quoted by Xiaoping Li, a former China dissident to have stated: "Some people said 200 died in the square, and others claimed that as many as 2,000 died. There were also stories of tanks running over students who were trying to leave. I have to say I did not see any of that. I was in the square until 6:30 in the morning."[270]

In 2009, human rights activist Robin Munro, stated that he was present during the clearance of Tiananmen Square and that, according to his account, there were ten Western reporters near the Monument to the People's Heroes at the time. He also reported a Spanish television crew that recorded footage of the event. Munro disputed Wu'er Kaixi's claims of mass killings inside the square, stating that he did not witness fighting there and instead observed students peacefully complying with the soldiers' demands to leave the square in an orderly manner. He further noted that the Spanish TV crew reported not seeing killings within the square during the final clearance.[271][272]

In 2011, three secret cables from the United States embassy in Beijing from the time of the events were leaked and published by WikiLeaks, all of which stated that there was no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square itself.[195] Instead, they said Chinese soldiers opened fire on protesters in Beijing outside the square, around Muxidi station, as they fought their way from the west towards the centre.[195] A Chilean diplomat who had been positioned next to a Red Cross station inside the square told his US counterparts that he did not observe any mass firing of weapons into the crowds in the square itself, although sporadic gunfire was heard. He said that most of the troops who entered the square were armed only with anti-riot gear.[195][217]

It's important that we take study of allegations like this seriously and don't fall for bourgeois mythos.

I’ve seen a lot of pictures from the day both before and after the military intervention. I haven’t seen evidence characterising it as anything other than student-led protests, which of course were joined by other civilians. Do you have any?

Cowbee has already provided a wealth of information I would recommend starting with the article by Sun Feiyang and Roderic Day and delving into the sources provided.

BTW I find it disheartening when other leftists don’t seem to understand the concept of critical support, and act like they have to justify anything and everything a government does simply because they otherwise support it. This only drives away others who are open to e.g. opposition of NATO, but not willing to deny human rights abuses in support of that goal. Just seems hypocritical and like you don’t actually stand for any values instead of another flavor of tribalism and nationalism

This is a completely nonsensical and ridiculous reply to me simply pointing out that the protest was more complex than simply a student protest and that the violence was not so one sided and cartoonish but rather the result of clashes between rioters with such peaceful calls as

Don’t let any soldiers escape! Kill them all!

and the peaceful thoughts of CIA operative and student leader Chai Ling:

The students keep asking, “What should we do next? What can we accomplish?” I feel so sad, because how can I tell them that what we are actually hoping for is bloodshed

Who when asked:

Are you going to stay in the Square yourself?

Replied:

No, I won’t. Because my situation is different. My name is on the government’s hit list. I’m not going to let myself be destroyed by this government. I want to live

and the soldiers acting in place of riot police.

I am not at all against criticism of the handling of the events surrounding Tiananmen square in 1989 however that is not what you were doing rather you were merely obscuring the reality to allow yourself to apply easy blanket condemnation in place of real analysis and thought.

China survived the color revolution attempt in 89. Here on the western left we only accept martyrs and losers.

Your indoctrinated and ignorant ass is making stuff up.
Nobody mentioned "student protests" or running anybody over with tanks.
The US drama queen did make a laughable claim about genocide tho.
Only worthy of ridicule.

Buddy,

I love how when Tiananmen square gets brought up they either had to plead ignorance, which would mean the propaganda has successfully prevented them from learining about it, or they could just endorse the extrajudicial mass killing of protesters and then somehow present that as a sane viewpoint.

Talk about propaganda working and then call the event an "extrajudicial mass killing". Alright. Sounds like somebody blindly trusts capitalist propaganda. Go read the leaked cables. Or the other wealth of resources shared in this thread.

Big fan of the bot/Russian/Chinese accusations.
Feels like there's some pamflet called "Everyone Who Disagrees With Me Is An Unthinking Machine Or A Filthy Foreigner and other racist conspiracies for the liberal mind" that they have all read.
Imagine the hubris to think China pays some guy to argue with you that it's actually bad to bomb people or whatever.

What do you think should happen to people who

• Lynch an army Choir
• Lynch police
• Shoot civilians
• Refuse all methods of peaceful dispersal
• Are funded by a foreign Intelligence Agency
• Is led by agents from a foreign Intelligence Agency
• Demand immediate change of government, despite democratic opposition

Personally I don't think they should get run over by tanks, and it seems like the Chinese government didnt think so either, since that didnt happen. I do however think they should be stopped, the leaders and worst participants should be arrested and the "protest" should be dispersed, by the least violent means available, while minimizing threat to civilians. Which is also what happened, so...

BTW I find it disheartening when other leftists don’t seem to understand the concept of critical support, and act like they have to justify anything and everything a government does simply because they otherwise support it.

I find it disheartening when people talk out their ass on a subject they've only learned about from cultural osmosis, and they then think the pushback they receive is due to some doctrinal orthodoxy and not just because they're talking out of their ass. People aren't agreeing with your criticism because it is unfounded, not because it is criticism of China. If you posted something incorrect about the United States you'd likewise receive push back, and thats not because people here are nationalist democrats, but because that incorrect thing would likewise be unfounded.

You will see plenty of actual critique of China, especially its foreign policy, its trade with Israel, its actions during the sino-soviet split, it's failure to curtail liberals, the regressive views of some of the old guard when it comes to queer people, its drug laws, and Im sure a bunch of other things as well. You will also see spirited discussion about things like the "great firewall", state censorship, Dengism, and I dunno what else. The fact that things aren't reduced to some simple binary "good/bad" is why you see this. Because, you know, things aren't that simple.

You know you can do this neat thing of looking into things before you speak, right?

Okay so for one I didn't say there was propaganda, I said did the user with the china flag pfp plead ignorance, it would have verified that they fell for some kind of propaganda - namely some campaign aimed at restricting knowledge about the incident.

Second, to say it was not an extrajudicial mass killing, you would have to believe one or more of the following:

• A court with sufficient authority ordered the killing of protesters - I don't know much about the chinese legal system but I doubt such a court exists.
• A law permitting such action was in place.
• There was no mass killing.

The first two may be true (I don't know if they are) but if so, then it's probably not something you should support. The last one is not true, even the CCP doesn't deny there were at least 200 dead.

I mean you can symphatize or not symphatize with the protesters' cause, but there is not really a situation in which what happened to the unluckiest of them is acceptable. Sure if they break the law apprehend them and put them in front of a judge (this exact solution is what I hinted at by using the term "extrajudicial" btw). 200+ (but more like 0+) protesters dead on the spot is not really justifiable under any system.

endorse the extrajudicial mass killing of protesters and then somehow present that as a sane viewpoint.

Imagine the Jan 6 protesters staying during the insurrection when the US military comes in and then a subgroup of the 3%ers setting the military on fire because the US decided to send in the military unarmed and then the rest of the world calling the killings of these type of insurrectionists, extrajudicial mass killing of innocent protesters instead of rightful action against terrorists.

There is legitimate criticism to what happened during the 'Chang'an Avenue attacks', just like there is to the US Democratic party handling of the insurrection.

But saying the equivalent of "The Freedom Plaza crackdown was a mass arrest of innocent US civilians" is so far off what happened during Jan 6 2021, that even the title is wrong.

Okay so for one I didn’t say there was propaganda, I said did the user with the china flag pfp plead ignorance, it would have verified that they fell for some kind of propaganda - namely some campaign aimed at restricting knowledge about the incident.

Right, and you thinking that that would be a possibility is the propaganda working on you.

A law permitting such action was in place.

I'm pretty sure lynching an army Choir and police officers; wildly firing guns, leading to several civilian casualties; attempting to affect regime-change at the behest of a foreign Intelligence Agency; and refusing any and all attempts at peaceful dispersal is quite illegal everywhere. Call me crazy, but I also think its pretty reasonable for such things to be illegal.

The last one is not true, even the CCP doesn’t deny there were at least 200 dead.

CCP

You're so propagandised you can't even correctly name the political party.

There was no "mass killing" because the term "mass killing" implies a wanton murder of defenseless civilians, which is not what happened. There were violent clashes between ARMED protesters (who were organised, funded and led by literal CIA-agents) and the Chinese military.

You can sympathise all you want, and there is plenty of actual critique to be made of the situation, but just because you sympathise with someone doesn't mean you should suddenly present them as something they're not. It weakens your case and does not aid in learning anything from a tragic event.

Anyway here's a reading list for you to dismiss due to some ad hominem or other.

Okay so this is where we will obviously disagree, but I don't believe those protesters were violent (the chinese ones not the fucking jan6thers - although look at those guys they stormed the capitol, assulted officers and they still all got a due process and all what a weird thing). Surely that's becuase I have fallen for western propaganda but by that logic you have fallen for chinese propaganda, so discussion basically ends here.

Wow, you are so fucking confused it is actually hilarious.

You read the entire thread in question and ylh immediately side with the American. Fucking LMAO.

How in the hell does any gung-ho G.I. Joe bring up Tiananmen Square with a straight fucking face in the face of the USA's long list of war crimes in the last 60 years? Or how about the false flag of 9/11 we love to get all patriotic about? Not to mention all of the asbestos related deaths attributed to that day that every N.Y.C. mayor has covered up until Mamdani just recently let the cat out of the bag about?

The "nonviolent protestors" were burning military members alive in their cars, lynching them, stabbing them. You're so unbelievably stupid. Even Western sources clearly show that TSM was a failed color revolution started by capitalists.

Read a book.

Nobody cares what you find disheartening when you're literally spewing imperialist propaganda about the #1 socialist nation on the planet.

"Human rights abuses" buddy youre a socdem, not a leftist. Fuck OFF.

Hey champ, would you like to respond to Cowbee? No? Were you blown out by a Wikipedia article? E m b a r r a s i n g.

Neat! Your beliefs dont matter in the face of observable reality (CW: Charred body) though. International reports from the time, leaked security cables, credible first hand accounts with corroborating sources and physical evidence, and pictures from the event quite clearly demonstrate the Chinese protesters were violent.

Surely that’s becuase I have fallen for western propaganda but by that logic you have fallen for chinese propaganda

By the logic of you being wrong about something, the other must also be wrong? Either that, or they've actually bothered to learn about the event and you haven't. You can just go look at the first-hand sources and make your own conclusions.

so discussion basically ends here.

Or you can be a passive-agressive little twerp who cant handle the notion they might have been wrong about something, so instead of doing some simple research (if it can even be called that when all the sources are served up to you on a silver platter) you retreat to a little hugbox where your beliefs are never challenged and you are reinforced as being the cleverest little boy in all the land, I guess. Kinda pathetic though.

I don’t believe those protesters were violent

Most weren't violent hence the relatively peaceful evacuation of the square itself. That being said there are plenty of images of soldiers in dire straights at the hands of the more violent elements. Here is an English language display of some of the images very NSFW CW:Dead bodies, Violence, Blood, Weapons.

First of all thanks for the reading list, I will read it just to spite you (and certainly not becuase I was already this close to asking you for one already). Alternatively you may believe you are a reverse psychology mastermanipulator.

Initially the rest of this comment was a rant about how bad faith the comments of this community constantly are, but I realized this line will do just fine.

Happy you read. I would suggest you go through @Cowbee@lemmy.mls comment history for any questions you might have. He has gone through this discussion so many times almost anything you might want to ask about has already been answered at some point.

Initially the rest of this comment was a rant about how bad faith the comments of this community constantly are.

People treat you as you treat them. When you speak on a subject despite being clearly uneducated, and you speak as though you are an expert, then it is quite understandable that you get treated like the smug dumbass you are behaving like. This is common to almost all online (and IRL) communities. You probably just do not notice it because you rarely utter heterodox opinions without some actual academic foundation to do so.
People are especially likely to treat you poorly when you react as you do to pushback - that is to say with condescention, derision and a turning sophomoric attitude.

I haven't issued any blanket condemnations. Rather I said thanks for the info, I'll look into it. Even though it seems a lot of folks here prefer to ridicule me for being less terminally online. Not that that says anything about the merit of the arguments at hand, but "you're a moron if you don't already agree with every single thing I believe" isn't exactly good publicity. Not gonna respond to those comments for obvious reasons.

What's embarrassing, downright pathetic even, is trying to ridicule someone for being less terminally online than yourself. Same for the open hostility after I literally said: Thanks for the info, I'll look into it.

Make no mistake buddy, I don't owe you shit.

No one was run over by tanks

Most USians are a lost cause, they are propagandized from an early age that they become immune to reason and evidence.

I find people are generally more polite when you don't call them hypocritical blind tribalists and nationalists for not conforming to what you think they should believe based on what you've simply osmosised from the hegemonic liberal view on the matter and instead stick to polite questions and requests for clarification until you're more informed.

not terminally online

Yeah you seem like a real grass-touching type, throwing a fit over being corrected.

Make no mistake buddy, I don’t owe you shit.

Wowww you sound really tough! And cool!

Fuck around with leftists on Lemmy and you get told that you are a) wrong and b) "maybe look into - here is a bibliography that supports my claims that shall enlighten you ". Put on the edge but this is generally my experience. And I consider myself leftist with a love for Marxist and Frankfurt School theory. Probably not left enough.

Also thanks to ya all for some insight into the "student protest"!

We agree but from my humble experiences the glazing of China is waaaaay more present on Lemmy than critique.

Extrajudicial mass killing is accurate, it may lack nuance but it's so accurate.

They are referring to Cowbee's reply to you that you have not responded to: https://lemmy.ml/post/52828520/27863667

Which to add then, are you still going to continue doubling down? Or just start lashing out instead?

Its not at all, as has been briefly and accesibly argued. If you disagree present why the arguments presented are unsound.
Just going "actually it is" when there's several comments detailing why it isn't and not addressing any of their points, just makes you (and your position) appear ridiculous.