Just wanted to pop this article in here to help reduce incidents of friendly fire within the neurodiverse community. People with ASD and NPD face a common struggle against neuronormativity. We even face similar stereotypes about how we act! So the self-help scammers trying to turn autistic people against narcissistic people are actively harming the entire community.

Wait what, autistic people struggle against neuronormative people, and form a community with narcissistic people? What the fuck.

Yeah, we're both neurodivergent. We're both seen as lacking empathy by neurotypicals. We were both named after self-centeredness by early psychiatrists. We're both characterised by society as superpowered alien beings. We're both disabled by society's current norms and values.

The entire ND community needs to stand together against neuronormaty, but autism and narcissism are uniquely adjacent in terms of how society treats us. I've got both, and I experience a lot of common ground between the two. See yesterday's post: https://multiverse.soulism.net/c/autism@lemmy.world/p/303507/autism-and-narcissism

Yeah, sometimes I still lurk on reddit and when I go to certain subs I'll see a lot of autistic people who really buy into that. I've seen other autistic people post about how they're either 'narc magnets' or 'narc repellent'. It frustrates me to see ableism against people who are perceived as 'deserving' it when we as autistic people already face so much ableism from neurotypical people. I mean, I understand on one hand feeling hurt when you're a victim of abuse and trying to make sense of it, but the way to do that isn't through.....the whole 'narc abuse' pop psychology BS. Back when I had an account I would try to speak out against it, but reddit is getting worse and worse with its data collection, so I'm back to lurking only (using redlib). At least I generally see other people doing it as well, even if they're not always well-received. So hopefully, in time, it'll change, but I don't know.

ND's aren't considered superpowered alien beings and they are disabled--as far as they are--by using other people to meet their own emotional needs.

One common trait of autism is a high value on rules and truth, rules which would be violating by making constant ad hoc exceptions that suit us emotionally.

Further, ND is "bad" in the sense that is the result of damage done during childhood that interferes with the full expression of human relationship. Autism is just a different way of being whose only harm derives exactly from being different in a socially competitive species.

I really don't see the logical connection between the two.

I was recommended to read this article yesterday. And the point about how "narcissistic abuse" is a scam designed to take money from abuse survivors really helped Me make sense of those reddit ableists. They're hurting the community because they've been scammed into a hateful and anti-healing ideology. That's why they're miserable, and why they're making it everyone else's problem.

I agree there are differences between these two different ND conditions. You've pointed out some genuine differences. I'm certainly not saying they're identical. But there are also many similarities, like those I wrote about yesterday.

And the disability from My NPD isn't just a matter of how I treat others. My sense of self is... fundamentally artificial. I made Myself up, and I'm very aware of that fact, because I can change it without much effort, and other people can damage it without even meaning to. I don't feel like a real person. And I'm fine with that, but we live in a society where beings are expected to be real and to be people. My lack of artifice about My artificiality creeps people out.

I wish we lived in a society where everyone had NPD, because then social norms would be so much less effortful to Me, and I'd catch fewer ego injuries because people would know how to be sensitive about that stuff. Communicating with other NPD folks is easy in a way I don't experience with egotypicals. Communicating with autistic NPD folk is often effortless.

My take is that personality disorders are just psychology's way of saying, " We give up," but I think you can often recontenxtualize as a PD as a regular diagnosis that is "treatable".

Where as autism really is just a different way of experiencing the world.

So, being a treatable result of abuse or neglect, NPD isn't something I'd want to be build my identity around.

And how does the ability of people to hurt you without meaning to square with this artificiality you feel? If it's all artificial, it wouldn't make sense to be personally hurt.

You know kintsugi, the Japanese art with broken pots and gold?

The way I see it, My abuse is like the cracks. My NPD is like the gold. My NPD put Me back together again after My parents broke Me.

I'm always going to be broken, but I can be whole and broken at the same time. I like the Myselves that My NPD helped Me make. I like Myself better than if I were a boring normal pot that never broke. I'm a shiny and interesting pot. And I'm living a genuinely great life.

Yesterday I drank nectar from a flower! I learned it from an Aboriginal teacher on Country. I'm happy. I have a family I love, and they love Me. I made it Myself.

I love kintsugi and the metaphor is provides us.

But I guess I don't see NPD as any kind of gold. It's more like a cast you put on a broken leg to protect it. Eventually, you want to get rid of the cast so you can run again.

I'm glad you're in a better place now.

I can't become an egotypical, I'm always going to have the abilities I developed in response to the abuse. Empathy control. Ego-shapeshifting. Hell, I'm plural because of My NPD! I have multiple stable selves I grew!

And I wouldn't want to give up those abilities. I can do strange and wonderful things with My mind because I am something other than a person. I don't want to be like you, I want to be like Me. If a conversion therapy existed, I wouldn't want it.

Do you have a source explaining why NPD is neurodivergent? My understanding is that autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder with a significant genetic component that, depending on severity, can seriously disable independent life.
On the other hand, npd is never a disability, it is supposed to have something to do with early childhood experiences. It is a (somewhat outdated) psychological description of the way how the personality of otherwise biologically healthy people can be like and has little to no genetic predisposition.

My opinion: caring for a dependent who is autistic can be really hard, but it’s something someone does for a loved one. Being around a narcissist sucks and the only options are to set hard boundaries or get them out of your life.

Of course that distinction only matters if you use the terms to describe the disorders they mean, not if you just call people who are awkward with others autistic and people who act self centered narcissistic.

Screw narcissistic people. If you let your guard down they will manipulate you and ultimately stab you in the back

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#CITEREFCaligorLevyYeomans2015

It is often co-morbid with other mental disorders and associated with significant functional impairment and psychosocial disability.[1]

It's a disability. People with NPD (that's person first language) struggle with identity, self-esteem regulation, skill development, and interpersonal problems. Both due to society's treatment of us, and the structure of our self-identity in the brain. I recommend reading the DSM-5's appendix on personality disorders. The new model of NPD is as a system of struggles with identity formation and interpersonal interaction.

https://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/carrerasdegrado/psicologia/sitios_catedras/practicas_profesionales/820_clinica_tr_personalidad_psicosis/material/dsm.pdf

For an egotypical, the process by which you made your identity as a child felt effortless, because of the support of your parents. And it's easy for you to imagine that it's that easy for everyone.

But I don't feel like a real person. My understanding of Myself is artificial. I made Myself up. And it's a fragile ego, so I frequently have to rebuild parts of it. I can change it without much effort. My way of interacting with the world is different than yours, because we both use our selves to do that, and how our selves function is different.

So basically NPD is neurodivergence because the brain works different. And we know the brain works different, because the mind works different.

Screw egotypical people.

Thanks. I’ll read into it, probably everything I have read previously is pretty outdated now.

Hard agree. It's clear who hasn't been the victim of them here.