Apologies (and more importantly amends) are owed and paid because they are a debt on the debtor. I am not in turn owed a receipt for either. It hurts to not get an acknowledgent, but if I'm upset that I didn't get one, I have to start this statement over.

Worth noting I am really bad at this. Been actively trying it for exactly ten years as of tomorrow come to think of it...

I have been on both sides, and I believe the only justification needed is in the heart of the individual. Another thing to consider is that narcissists often weaponize apologies to avoid consequences. Theirs become meaningless over time to those "closest" to them.

My mother has a habit of giving insincere non apologies, and I started to reject them because I know their fake. Whether it's the standard "I'm sorry if you are offended/your feelings are hurt", I'm just over them. No thanks. Change the behavior.

Yeah I've rejected apologies that didn't address the transgression and explained directly why. Sometimes people see what you mean and you can tell they feel guilty that they've wronged you, even if they didn't fully understand why. In a way that's often good enough, as long as they can also understand why after being told.

I've had people categorically revoke their apology after giving a shitty "sorry if my totally valid actions makde you feel bad" sort of apology and being rejected. So you spit on the ground and tell them never to darken your vision with their presence. Easy.

Yes I have, yes it is, and I've learned to be a little more graceful and gracious about it.

Insincere, not addressing the issues, addressing them and repeating them, sorry-not-sorry.

If you find yourself constantly surrounded by a bunch malignant narcissists, you're always the one apologizing, so no worries there.

The closest thing to an apology I've heard from these types of people is "I have my faults". Word for word from multiple individuals.

Yes. An apology is a promise to do better in the future, and I wasn't interested in remaining in contact with that person.

My life has improved without them. I don't miss them. So I feel like it was the right call.

A sincere apology, absolutely not.

We're a bunch of social, naked apes. We're always screwing around with this or that.

Heaven help the local moron who thinks he's better than the other ape.

I feel like a good reply to “I have my faults,” is, “List them.”

About the same as "let's just start fresh!"

Hey! My mom does that too!

"Sorry you can't take a joke."

No lie I've been offered this apology:

Sorry I'm not perfect, but I'm pretty darn close!

Yes, I was still furious, they didn't even really admit to the issue.

Was it right?

I still think so, I don't think you should get away easily if you screwed up. I think you should have the opportunity to own stuff and improve and earn the respect and trust of everyone involved through that. But nobody owes you to just move on.

yes, and yes.

because they didn't take responsibility for their actions. they blamed continued to blame me for 'making' them do it.

and i'm not talking about hurt feelings. i'm talking about cheating, lying, and theft.

Plenty of times at work, I see people give an apology for something they had no control over, or did have control over but were acting in good faith, so they're quick to start dropping apologies to management especially, hoping that it will diffuse the situation. I'm quick to step in with "naw fuck that, this isn't on you, let's figure out what happened and why so we can stop it from happening again"

Most healthcare settings embrace that kind of no-fault model unless someone was actually behaving maliciously or recklessly, but... that's only on paper. Management can still be quick to throw someone under the bus if they think it'll take some heat off the department, so when someone starts offering themselves to the bus cuz that's the path of least drama, I'll redirect to systems flaws before management has a chance to act on that.

So often (at least in my experience) an 'apology' is just used as camouflage for another attempt to argue the point of view of the one supposedly apologizing. Nope, sorry. Try again.

If an apology does not include an explicit and expressed admission of guilt without excuses, it's not an apology. It's a con job.

Oh I love that one! The oh you were offended? Then I was joking of course!

I highly recommend saying "I don't get it. Why was that funny?' Really throws them off their game!

I'm sorry that you have a find out this way, but you've been scammed.

Self-help books have sold you and your community the idea that abuse is caused by a mental disorder. Unfortunately, the remedy these scams prescribe - identifying people with NPD - doesn't actually protect you from abuse, and it isn't healing.

You won't find healing from your trauma in ableist Reddit communities. See an actual therapist and form positive relationships with people in your community. Not "support groups" that blame all their problems on their abusers' supposed mental disorders and engage in retraumatising. Get a hobby, spend time with friends in the hobby. Join a book club or a bouldering group or a D&D game.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder is caused by genetics and child abuse. People with NPD are abuse victims, just like you. There are plenty of mentally healthy, neurotypical abusers in the world. Blaming shit on a vulnerable minority is pseudoscientific and counterproductive.

If an apology does not include an explicit and expressed admission of guilt without excuses, it’s not an apology.

I mean, by definition, an apology that doesn't include an understanding of transgression, a plan to improve, and a statement of guilt, isn't a proper apology.

I had a housemate apologize in advance for the poor behavior of his guests later that night. I don't think I formally rejected it, but I certainly wasn't impressed. So you know this is going to upset me enough to warrant an apology, but you're won't be addressing your behavior, or your friends, you're just going to do it anyway, with a clean conscience because you've already apologized?

I agree. But depending on the Person and their upbringing of cause, the pondering can lead to a toxic self image, if this behaviour is internalized and seen as a charakter trait instead of a misshap. Thats i think due guild shifting into toxic shame.

So i think like you said the apology is helpful for the Person doing the apology to overcome a bad feeling before it turns ok them selves if they dont have a solid way to deal with emotions

background: im german and the word for apology translates to "un-debt" (to remove the dept).

I never liked that there where sentences like "i un-debt myself" so at some point in early childhood i refused them outright because i am the one they have a debt to and asked them to ask instead: "will you accept my un-debt?"
Ot some point i also refused apologies because they where forced by parents (not genuine) or because they had no "debt" to repay to me.

Thats why i like the german word more, its so much more clear because its a combined word.

My family supported my opinion and my jounger brother adapted it naturally :)

Regardless of the underlying reasons, narcissistic personality disorder often makes someone a harmful person to be around; the diagnosis is a reason, not an excuse. At the end of the day it's their own responsibility to change their behaviour, and to find a lifestyle that empowers them to exist safely in society without harming others.

The only diagnostic criteria for NPD that's related to harm is the one that says "interpersonally exploitative behaviour". Since a diagnosis required 5/9 criteria, it was very easy to get diagnosed without that criterion. And now that the DSM-5 is out with the new dimensional model of personality disorders, harming others isn't even a criterion anymore in the up to date model.

The idea that NPD is defined by harming others is old outdated pseudoscience. Leading experts on personality disorder no longer believe in that stereotype.

Self help gurus continue to sell you that old lie, because it's profitable. It makes you an easy mark who will buy useless books and stew in your trauma. Never getting better, just buying more.

Heaps. I was a doorman and bouncer, plenty of guys tried to apologise for their shit behaviour, fuck your apology, behave yourself better in the first place.

It's not a good idea to run defense for people who are narcissists when you know nothing about them as a person.

There are people with NPD who are abusers and horrible people, just like there are people without NPD who are also abusers and horrible people. It's naive to think otherwise.

Not every single person with NPD is this innocent misunderstood soul who deserves to be coddled in forgiveness and you need to accept that.

Oh, I'm talking about My friend, Riley. He's a bit of a prick but he's never abused anyone. His biggest character flaw is that he loves his rural American family, and they're not the best about his transness.

I'm not talking about diagnostic criteria here.

You can have a diagnostic criteria of "a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy" (direct quote); but that doesn't mention the manifested practical effects of those symptoms often resulting in markedly increased harm to those around them. I'd personally argue that any condition with lack of empathy has a higher chance of leading to abusive behaviours.

It doesn't surprise me it was removed, though. Diagnosis is usually about the person themselves and how to treat them individually, rather than about anybody else; so it's weird that it was there in the first place. Even antisocial personality disorder has a diagnostic criteria of "egocentrism; self-esteem derived from personal gain, power, or pleasure", which again is talking about the individual across the table not their family at home.

Interpersonal stuff is more the realm of therapy. Diagnostic criteria is not the full picture of a disorder.

I’d personally argue that any condition with lack of empathy has a higher chance of leading to abusive behaviours.

Autism is associated with reduced cognitive empathy, which is the ability to intuit others' thoughts. As an autistic being, it's harder for Me to tell what other people are thinking and what they mean to communicate, outside My areas of expertise. But having autism doesn't make Me abusive.

Another similarity between autism and NPD is the name. Autism is Latin for self-ism. Early psychiatrists believed us ASD folks were preoccupied with ourselves, same with NPD. NPD has had less social progress, so uneducated people still believe that about NPD, even though increased awareness has helped people grow beyond that thinking with ASD.

When the apology was for something that kept repeating again and again, and so it started to lose its meaning.

So we're just ignoring everything else I wrote and fixating on the subjective personal opinion? Ok then.

The name doesn't matter; Autism is nothing like Narcissistic Personality Disorder. The only thing I can see that overlaps at all is maybe communication difficulties; but again, the practical manifestation of these communication difficulties are extremely different.

Autism

Autism, also known as autism spectrum disorder (ASD), is a condition characterized by impairment in social communication and interaction, as well as a need or strong preference for predictability and routine, sensory processing differences, focused interests, or repetitive behaviors.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a complex and heterogeneous personality disorder characterized by patterns of grandiosity, entitlement, low empathy, and interpersonal difficulties, which can manifest as either grandiose ("thick-skinned") or vulnerable ("thin-skinned") forms.

Grandiose individuals display arrogance, social dominance, and exploitative behaviors, while vulnerable individuals show shame, inferiority, hypersensitivity, and extreme reactions to criticism. NPD often involves impaired emotional empathy, superficial relationships, and difficulty tolerating disagreement.

Not that I can recall. An apology in earnest (when one has realized the error in their ways/thought, acknowledges it and wants to rebuild the bridges they might have burned or damaged by being nice and actively changing) is never wasted on me, I think.

What? It is the sick person's responsability to heal out of their own will? That would make medicine easy, but I am not sure it would really work...

I meant it's their responsibility to change; in contrast to others' responsibility to accept their behaviours. Ideally there would be medical professionals involved, but that may not be possible in certain regions.

But for someone in a wheelchair, who's responsaoility is it?

Wheelchairs are actually a great example of someone using supports to accommodate their limitations.

But do you think we should make an effort to adapt ourself, or that it is fully on them to make efforts? Such as, if they want to board a train, and it takes 2 steps, should some valid people help him? should they do nothing? should they scold him for being infront of the door and slowing others?

Wheelchairs are not a good analogy for Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD); but you're basically asking the old question of "who bears the burden of disability" in general right?

I don't have NPD disorder, and don't know anyone diagnosed with it; so I can't say with confidence what accommodation would look like.

You're right that it's not 100% the patient's responsibilty. I should have made that more clear in my other comment. My point was that in your wheelchair metaphor, it's the patient's responsibilty to acquire a "wheelchair" as the first step of treatment. Otherwise they're metaphorically expecting those around them to carry them around everywhere.

Yes, I think a proper apology could include a plan for repairations or a noteable behaviour change and acceptance could be delayed until they make good on their promises.

One of the problem with mental health, is that it is usually not obvious for the patient (at least until a proper diagnose is made). Even if you consider some severe cases with multiple sensorial hallucinations, from the patient's point of view everything is normal and logical.

So you are right that the wheelchair isn't a very good analogy. Should I suffer a physical disability, I would notice it easily. On an other hand, if I suffer of some mental disability/sickness, I would have to rely on you (on other people) to tell me about the problems so that I may look for a medical diagnose and help. Yet I am not pretending it would be easy to make me notice I may have a mental problem: I would need to use my brain to find out that my brain goes wrong, that my normal isn't normal ; and finaly find that my reality or logic doesn't match the real one (while still being in my reality).

No-one has bothered to try apologizing for the shit they put me through to begin with.

"I'm sorry you chose to get torqued about it." Nope. You torqued me off when you screwed me over.

Yet, you would be surprised at how widespread this error is. "Hey, I just wanted to apologize for our disagreement, but you really should see things my way." It's so prevalent, it's a textbook red-flag for an abusive personality.

I've been heard to say, from time to time, that apologies only count if you also stop doing the thing you're sorry about.

I could see apologizing in advance if you get a bit loud and to say if they're getting too loud but any other behaviour you can't really apologize for in advanced