stop trying to force a reality that fits your narrative

i came to this forum thinking i'd find interesting stuff and it's mostly just people getting angry at reality

Yea I'm sure when Google came out "Real Programmers" were angry at all these people just looking up solutions to their coding issues, and using Stack Overflow instead of studying the API or books.

Only to be replaced by people that embraced the new technology.

And then yesterday he said something along the lines of "we need to make it harder to contribute to the Linux kernel." Which I believe he means to say "oh god there's so much being submitted all of a sudden and it's all slop."

Only to be replaced by people that embraced the new technology.

I think you have to make a distinction here:

It makes a huge difference whether you know what you’re doing and can work more efficiently thanks to the new technology... or whether you have no idea and think the new technology is a magic wand that can solve everything (which you only think because you have no clue about the subject and therefore believe that whatever the new technology produces is good or desirable).

To stick with your example: Someone who couldn’t code before didn’t suddenly learn how to do it on their own just because of StackOverflow; it just made things easier for people who already had some knowledge but were simply lacking the specific know-how.

In this case, I’d cautiously assume that Torvald can judge what makes sense (within his area of expertise) and what doesn’t.

When reality is shit one must rage at it.

lol how many tokens did you burn today

I think that is still true today with AI just to a lesser degree.

After google many people could copy templates, change a few things and boom they "Built a Website"

It's pretty obvious when someone who has no clue, just used AI to slop out code or something.
And it's often riddled with bugs and issues.

Where as someone with say 10+ Years experience in coding, can use AI to do their job a lot faster and better, and denying that is delusional and you will fall behind - !RemindMe 5 years

Eg. I can just throw my error logs and repo at a local hosted AI, and it will find the bug significantly faster than I would have.

Oh no, you are one of those "if you don't adapt you will be left behind" people, aren't you?

Its been an hour, the chatbot hasn't given them the perfect retort yet.

Anti-social hermit discovers that his job is more fun if he has someone to talk to.

You have to kind of feel sorry for him.

Yeah, but therein lies the problem

If you don't have new junior devs learning how it all works through trials by fire, we're going to be the last generation of senior devs.

I like llms, they're interesting and can be a real force multiplier. They let you skip the unimportant details and build bigger and faster. You design the system and focus on the architecture, and you get pretty great results

But you can also leave it all up to the ai and create things that no one understands. They're also not going away

But I don't know how we go forward from here. My best idea is that we make it illegal to provide llm access as a service - maybe everyone who uses one should have to set up their stack themselves. It's not a perfect solution, but at least everyone who uses them will have to learn them like they would any other tool in their toolbox

I don't fear AI in the slightest, but I do fear the ways we're using it as a species

Perfect retort to name-calling? FM69's comment is not exactly a rhetorical masterpiece.

until he fell into the slop vat and came out sloppified

Yeah, but if that's all you do nobody wants to be around you.

Ah, yes, "when used responsibly." Like how we use drugs, alcohol, guns, cars, money, power, and everything else responsibly? Humans can't be trusted with things that do more harm than good when used irresponsibly.

I agree, but the question is, how to use responsibly. I like to use it as an assistant that can look things up. Googling has the tendency to bring up outdated information, a good AI model is able to cross-reference what it finds with documentation and release notes. I never let the AI write anything for me though.

We’re on !linux@programming.dev. You think people want to be around us?

I’ve been thinkin:

We went from STEM to STEAM. But I think we really need SHTEAM. (The H is for Humanities.)

Philosophy, psychology, history, basically anything that would get nerds to think about the social consequences of the stuff they like to tinker with.

Fall behind what
Every single one of you is behind the best coders in the world. Guess you should just give up and take on crochet or pickleball
You're behind, why bother

AI is the new reality aparently.

believe it or not i have the ability to still use my mind even when there are tools at my disposal! And I was at the local veggie market talking to people during that hour, so sadly again your narrative is wrong 😞 your response, however, pretty low effort... might need to throw a captcha at you

I'm sure I'm also behind the best cyclists in the world, and having a basket on my bike might make it slower, but it's way more enjoyable and functional for me that way.

And it better serves my purpose, sure I'm not going to win any races, but I never wanted that in the first place.

There is more to life then !linux@programming.dev

Hmmm, prove it using a bash script.

Blasphemy!!!

let's see, i woke up and did jiu jitsu. I went to the local vegetable market with my dog, bought some breakfast and got some coffee and practiced my Spanish with the vendor. I spoke with a nice lady about art residencies and her desire to live an alternative lifestyle even though shes 75. I had a conversation about iterative prisoner's dilemma game theory. Then I came home and now I'm replying to your low dimensional attempt at an insult, while spending some tokens to fix a form validation bug across a web app 💙

Sudo rm -rf ~/bin/.*

Claude, write me a bash script that proves there is more to life than !linux@programming.dev

or imagine a reality where AI just exists alongside other things. Stop catastrophizing

Rage is uncontrolled anger... it's not helping anyone and certainly not the person experiencing it. If you can find a way to channel that anger into something constructive, then you are doing something beneficial for all

So how do they gatekeep the vibecoders out then? FOSS need to change and develop new quality control systems.
Stop complaining about vibecode, just review it before you use it. Why can't you do it?

low dimensional thinking

Ignoring the hype is not catastrophizing.

alright, i'm disengaging from this echo box... everyone should go outside and sit in nature for a while

There are thousands of professional football teams that are behind the UEFA top 10, why do they even bother?

This is exactly how I use it too. Google and other search engines have gone to complete shit in order to cater to LLMs. So that's how I use the LLM. You are my search bitch, Gemini. No, you're not allowed to actually create anything.

Ew, a web sloper even.

Then just let AI use AI. I'll collect my Nobel prize now thx.

Presies.

Having an AI help you code is like getting your six-year-old to help you put a shelf on the wall. Undirected, they're just going to make a huge mess for you to clean up later. Given specific tasks within their abilities, they can actually make it both go faster and be an altogether more pleasant experience.

With direction and an operator who knows its limits, AI can be used to semi-automate many boring tasks. One of the things I've got set up in some of my open source projects is an LLM that takes bug reports and turns them into regression tests. I don't always end up committing the AI-generated test (sometimes it's very slow and I can better pinpoint the behaviour and target a test at that), but it helps because I don't have to do that scaffolding myself, and I can just immediately jump into a debugger.

Feel free to do so next to a data center. Feel (hear, breathe) some externalized costs for a while.

"Knives cause lots of stabbings, so let's ban knives"

The fucking point that Linus misses is, using AI by itself is intrinsically the more irresponsible thing to do. Change my mind.

Warning! very unpopular opinion
::: spoiler Title
I hate STEAM, preferred when it was just STEM.
:::

Nice try to equating a knife to fucking drugs. AI is even worse than drugs, is like the digital version of nuclear weaponry: it shouldn't even exist.

All those things, including knives, are heavily regulated, yes.

Because the pace of code production has officially overwhelmed the human capacity to review it. As it was discussed recently. Linus answer was to use more AI, with the implementation of code review tools that gobble up code and spew out summaries.

For the time being, humans reading the summaries count as human reviewed. But at some point in time this system will crack. The current zeitgeist is to restrict who can contribute. Which leads to the obvious follow up question of who decides based on what, and how to decide who deserves to contribute.

You just witnessed the first steps into the philosophical and political erosion of the open source movement. Not just on the kernel but it is also affecting almost all popular FOSS projects.

But of course, that doesnt matter because Linux is not and has never been political. /s

So SHTEM?