| Post Reply | RetroFed Forums Forum Index » Linux |
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cm0002
infosec.pub
cm0002@infosec.pub Joined: 2025-10-21 |
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hperrin
lemmy.ca
hperrin@lemmy.ca Joined: 2024-12-13 |
Generally I think when Ubuntu makes big moves, they’re pretty bad, but these rust reimplementations are actually pretty good. Good job, Canonical. |
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esc
piefed.social
esc@piefed.social Joined: 2026-03-24 |
Generally I think when Ubuntu makes big moves, they’re pretty bad, but these rust reimplementations are actually pretty good. Good job, Canonical.
What part of changing working, tested and very stable utilities with semi-compatible unstable ones is pretty good? |
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hperrin
lemmy.ca
hperrin@lemmy.ca Joined: 2024-12-13 |
What part of changing working, tested and very stable utilities with semi-compatible unstable ones is pretty good?
Because rust is inherently memory safe, so these utilities will be less likely to have hidden memory errors that could cause security issues. |
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esc
piefed.social
esc@piefed.social Joined: 2026-03-24 |
Because rust is inherently memory safe, so these utilities will be less likely to have hidden memory errors that could cause security issues.
So the change brings real incompatibility in excange for potential safety? |
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hperrin
lemmy.ca
hperrin@lemmy.ca Joined: 2024-12-13 |
So the change brings real incompatibility in excange for potential safety?
If the tools are actually incompatible, you can always go back to the old tools. They’re in another package. |
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Mio
feddit.nu
Mio@feddit.nu Joined: 2023-08-19 |
If the tools are actually incompatible, you can always go back to the old tools. They’re in another package.
There are probably edge cases and you might not know about them until you actually run into them by running a script or similar but then it is to late as people dont want things to break. |
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hperrin
lemmy.ca
hperrin@lemmy.ca Joined: 2024-12-13 |
There are probably edge cases and you might not know about them until you actually run into them by running a script or similar but then it is to late as people dont want things to break. There is 30 years of testing, and expected behavior, behind on what we have today.
Yeah man, we should never change anything. |
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onlinepersona
programming.dev
onlinepersona@programming.dev Joined: 2023-09-01 |
So the change brings real incompatibility in excange for potential safety?
"I'm against change!" Great, then don't change. No one is forcing you to. Just let others do their thing. |
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esc
piefed.social
esc@piefed.social Joined: 2026-03-24 |
"I'm against change!" Great, then don't change. No one is forcing you to. Just let others do their thing.
Should we change for the sake of change without any tangible benfits and obvious disadvantages on supposedly enterprise grade distros? |
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jimmy90
lemmy.world
jimmy90@lemmy.world Joined: 2023-06-22 |
What part of changing working, tested and very stable utilities with semi-compatible unstable ones is pretty good?
is this the one that AI has found 18 year old bugs and inconsistencies in? replacing this C shit show guarantees safety and using new fuzzers to ensure correctness and fix bugs in the gnu version is a bonus how is your non systemd distro going for you? have you heard of gui's? nothing like the old clickety clack of the vt100s eh? |
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Miaou
jlai.lu
Miaou@jlai.lu Joined: 2023-08-03 |
I was wondering why people here are so hyped about coreutils. Turns out that it's a Linux community, not a programming one. And it shows |
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onlinepersona
programming.dev
onlinepersona@programming.dev Joined: 2023-09-01 |
Should we change for the sake of change without any tangible benfits and obvious disadvantages on supposedly enterprise grade distros?
You seriously thing somebody woke up one morning and said "let's change it up" and set out to replace core-utils with uutils? No reason besides "I want change"? You seriously think memory safety isn't a "tangible benefit"? |
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Mio
feddit.nu
Mio@feddit.nu Joined: 2023-08-19 |
Yeah man, we should never change anything.
Change => changing behavior etc. That is not a problem at all as long as it 100% compatible - which in this case is very hard to prove. One difference is though that Ubuntu 26.10 is a new release(not LTS) so you would need to have a migration process anyway. |
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hperrin
lemmy.ca
hperrin@lemmy.ca Joined: 2024-12-13 |
Should we change for the sake of change without any tangible benfits and obvious disadvantages on supposedly enterprise grade distros?
If this was a change just for the sake of change, you would totally have a point! |
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caseyweederman
lemmy.ca
caseyweederman@lemmy.caJoined: 2023-08-30 |
If the tools are actually incompatible, you can always go back to the old tools. They’re in another package.
They're very open about not being 1:1 on feature matching. |
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caseyweederman
lemmy.ca
caseyweederman@lemmy.caJoined: 2023-08-30 |
There are probably edge cases and you might not know about them until you actually run into them by running a script or similar but then it is to late as people dont want things to break. There is 30 years of testing, and expected behavior, behind on what we have today.
sudo-rs breaks Ansible. Imagine pushing this nightmare out to several hundred computers and then not being able to reverse it. |
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hperrin
lemmy.ca
hperrin@lemmy.ca Joined: 2024-12-13 |
They're very open about not being 1:1 on feature matching. sudo-rs breaks Ansible privilege escalation. They blamed the Ansible team. The Rust coreutils package upgrade removes coreutils from your system and then fails to install the new ones because there aren't any coreutils installed. They blamed the dpkg team.
Does dpkg depend on coreutils?? |
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NotSteve_
lemmy.ca
NotSteve_@lemmy.ca Joined: 2023-07-16 |
What part of changing working, tested and very stable utilities with semi-compatible unstable ones is pretty good?
Modern, clean codebases that can attract rather than deter contributors. Sure, a lot of the coreutils are "feature complete" but they still need maintenance+security patches and someone will need to work on and release those. Are you someone who's also against the deprecation of X11 for Wayland? |
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caseyweederman
lemmy.ca
caseyweederman@lemmy.caJoined: 2023-08-30 |
Does dpkg depend on coreutils??
They're saying "dpkg needs to put in the work to make an exception for our specific use-case because why should we change it" |
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hperrin
lemmy.ca
hperrin@lemmy.ca Joined: 2024-12-13 |
They're saying "dpkg needs to put in the work to make an exception for our specific use-case because why should we change it"
My question would be why does dpkg need to except anything? Why do they depend on coreutils at all? |
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caseyweederman
lemmy.ca
caseyweederman@lemmy.caJoined: 2023-08-30 |
My question would be why does dpkg need to except anything? Why do they depend on coreutils at all?
It's not that they depend on coreutils, it's that without coreutils, the operating system no longer has the tools to (for example) navigate and make changes to the file system. |
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hperrin
lemmy.ca
hperrin@lemmy.ca Joined: 2024-12-13 |
It's not that they depend on coreutils, it's that without coreutils, the operating system no longer has the tools to (for example) navigate and make changes to the file system.
No, the kernel does that. Coreutils are the tools for the user to do that through the terminal, and for shell scripts that can’t make kernel calls (because they’re scripts). (Fun fact: you can absolutely call that kernel function I just linked to in a super unsafe way in C, leading to a vulnerable tool whose only job is to read a directory, like ls.) |
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esc
piefed.social
esc@piefed.social Joined: 2026-03-24 |
Modern, clean codebases that can attract rather than deter contributors. Sure, a lot of the coreutils are "feature complete" but they still need maintenance+security patches and someone will need to work on and release those. Are you someone who's also against the deprecation of X11 for Wayland?
Are you implying that coreutils aren't supported or patched on time? That there aren't enough maintainers? That nobody works on them? State in which way current coreutils aren't up to par compared to modern and attractive reimplementation. Personally I don't see the point, there is nothing extremely good about them that would require a switch. My stance on other projects is irrelevant |
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caseyweederman
lemmy.ca
caseyweederman@lemmy.caJoined: 2023-08-30 |
No, the kernel does that. Coreutils are the tools for the user to do that through the terminal, and for shell scripts that can’t make kernel calls (because they’re scripts). (Fun fact: you can absolutely call that kernel function I just linked to in a super unsafe way in C, leading to a vulnerable tool whose only job is to read a directory, like ls.)
Fair point. dpkg, being effectively some scripts, suddenly lose access to user-level utilities for managing files in the filesystem, like mv, mkdir, cp, ln, etc. |
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hperrin
lemmy.ca
hperrin@lemmy.ca Joined: 2024-12-13 |
Fair point. dpkg, being effectively some scripts, suddenly lose access to user-level utilities for managing files in the filesystem, like mv, mkdir, cp, ln, etc.
dpkg is mostly written in C and Perl. It is not “effectively some scripts”. I feel like you don’t actually know what you’re talking about. |
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caseyweederman
lemmy.ca
caseyweederman@lemmy.caJoined: 2023-08-30 |
dpkg is mostly written in C and Perl. It is not “effectively some scripts”. I feel like you don’t actually know what you’re talking about.
My bad, I was just trying to meet you halfway and not suggest that you don't actually know what you're talking about, because that would be rude. I don't really care what dpkg is written in but I do know two things for a fact: Ubuntu's coreutils upgrade broke Ubuntu because coreutils first gets removed, and Canonical's official response was "apt maintainers will have to clean up our mess": https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/migration-to-rust-coreutils-in-25-10/59708 |
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hperrin
lemmy.ca
hperrin@lemmy.ca Joined: 2024-12-13 |
My bad, I was just trying to meet you halfway and not suggest that you don't actually know what you're talking about, because that would be rude. I don't really care what dpkg is written in but I do know two things for a fact: Ubuntu's coreutils upgrade broke Ubuntu because coreutils first gets removed, and Canonical's official response was "apt maintainers will have to clean up our mess": http...
I read through that whole discussion. None of it seems unreasonable. Considering Debian also wants apt to support replacing coreutils too, I don’t even know why you think it’s unreasonable. There is limiting behavior in apt, and both the Debian and the Ubuntu devs want it fixed. It’s a win-win. |
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hperrin
lemmy.ca
hperrin@lemmy.ca Joined: 2024-12-13 |
Are you implying that coreutils aren't supported or patched on time? That there aren't enough maintainers? That nobody works on them? State in which way current coreutils aren't up to par compared to modern and attractive reimplementation. Personally I don't see the point, there is nothing extremely good about them that would require a switch. My stance on other projects is irrelevant
Literally no one is forcing you to switch. Just keep using coreutils. |
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esc
piefed.social
esc@piefed.social Joined: 2026-03-24 |
Literally no one is forcing you to switch. Just keep using coreutils.
Unless I'm an ubuntu user? |
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hperrin
lemmy.ca
hperrin@lemmy.ca Joined: 2024-12-13 |
Unless I'm an ubuntu user?
I’m sorry, I must have not said this loud enough. JUST KEEP USING COREUTILS. |
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esc
piefed.social
esc@piefed.social Joined: 2026-03-24 |
I’m sorry, I must have not said this loud enough. JUST KEEP USING COREUTILS.
UNLESS I'M AN UBUNTU USER |
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hperrin
lemmy.ca
hperrin@lemmy.ca Joined: 2024-12-13 |
UNLESS I'M AN UBUNTU USER
Omg dude, you can still use coreutils on Ubuntu:
You can also opt out before you upgrade:
NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO SWITCH! |
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esc
piefed.social
esc@piefed.social Joined: 2026-03-24 |
Omg dude, you can still use coreutils on Ubuntu: sudo apt-get remove coreutils-from-uutils --allow-remove-essential You can also opt out before you upgrade: /etc/apt/preferences.d/uutils: Package: coreutils-from-uutils Pin: release a=* Pin-Priority: -10 NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO SWITCH!
Opt-out and not forcing are mutually exclusive. Obviously I can install GNU Coreutils. |
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