| Post Reply | RetroFed Forum Forum Index » Technology |
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Allah
piefed.world
Allah@piefed.world Joined: 2025-07-16 |
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db2
lemmy.world
db2@lemmy.world Joined: 2023-07-29 |
So we're just throwing in the towel on what words mean now I guess. Anything can be a neuron. |
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etchinghillside
reddthat.com
etchinghillside@reddthat.com Joined: 2023-07-13 |
So we're just throwing in the towel on what words mean now I guess. Anything can be a neuron.
But can anything be a H-NEURON? |
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Allah
piefed.world
Allah@piefed.world Joined: 2025-07-16 |
So we're just throwing in the towel on what words mean now I guess. Anything can be a neuron.
kind of like cpu is the brain of computer |
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Skullgrid
lemmy.world
Skullgrid@lemmy.worldJoined: 2023-06-29 |
But can anything be a H-NEURON?
no, they have to be the nodes responsible for the creation of hallucinations |
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Skullgrid
lemmy.world
Skullgrid@lemmy.worldJoined: 2023-06-29 |
So we're just throwing in the towel on what words mean now I guess. Anything can be a neuron.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_network_(machine_learning) it's a node in the system. |
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so_pitted_wabam
lemmy.zip
so_pitted_wabam@lemmy.zip Joined: 2026-02-24 |
I think a more appropriate post title would be “Researchers have identified and named the process that spawns hallucinations in LLMs, they still don’t know the cause though” This article is like reading the headline “Researchers have identified the cause of AIDS” and then you open it up and the body is a bunch of science jargon that basically says HIV. |
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XLE
piefed.social
XLE@piefed.social Joined: 2025-06-23 Banned |
In this paper, we conduct a systematic investigation into hallucination-associated neurons (H-Neurons) no, they have to be the nodes responsible for the creation of hallucinations
And a "hallucination" is also an inaccurate humanization of the actual meaning: "statistical relationship that we AI folks don't like." "Hallucinations" even include accurate data. It is a trash marketing buzzword. |
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Skullgrid
lemmy.world
Skullgrid@lemmy.worldJoined: 2023-06-29 |
And a "hallucination" is also an inaccurate humanization of the actual meaning: "statistical relationship that we AI folks don't like." "Hallucinations" even include accurate data. It is a trash marketing buzzword.
did you know that there is no sex going on in a Breeder Reactor? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor They're analogies to help us communicate ideas. |
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Greg Clarke
lemmy.ca
Greg@lemmy.caJoined: 2022-11-09 |
So we're just throwing in the towel on what words mean now I guess. Anything can be a neuron.
Hchicdfvhk! |
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Skullgrid
lemmy.world
Skullgrid@lemmy.worldJoined: 2023-06-29 |
I think a more appropriate post title would be “Researchers have identified and named the process that spawns hallucinations in LLMs, they still don’t know the cause though” This article is like reading the headline “Researchers have identified the cause of AIDS” and then you open it up and the body is a bunch of science jargon that basically says HIV.
it sounds like it's just how the systems are designed. I mean, the point of this shit is to take training data and create new stuff out of it through pattern matching. You're going to get some mismatched shit by design,since the random decisions are modified by the weights. Otherwise you'd get the same shit every time. |
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AbouBenAdhem
lemmy.world
AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world Joined: 2023-06-13 |
I wonder if the same tendencies are associated in humans—and if so, is it something LLMs learned from humans, or is it a consequence of the general structure of neural networks? |
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snooggums
piefed.world
snooggums@piefed.world Joined: 2025-07-08 |
This article is like reading the headline “Researchers have identified the cause of AIDS” and then you open it up and the body is a bunch of science jargon that basically says HIV. Concerning their origins, we trace these neurons back to the pre-trained base models and find that these neurons remain predictive for hallucination detection, indicating they emerge during pre-training. it sounds li...
When the system is intended to look like a random a person then randomness is fine. When the output is expected to be accurate, it should be the same each time so it can be verified as accurate. LLMs are being sold as doing both at the same time, but random plus consistent equals random. |
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Bronzebeard
lemmy.zip
Bronzebeard@lemmy.zip Joined: 2025-07-01 |
did you know that there is no sex going on in a Breeder Reactor? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor They're analogies to help us communicate ideas.
I don't think anyone is confusing radiation propagation with being alive though. The issue is, these things "communicate" with us so granting it even more leeway to seem like it's thinking (it's not) is only further muddying how people perceive them |
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Bronzebeard
lemmy.zip
Bronzebeard@lemmy.zip Joined: 2025-07-01 |
kind of like cpu is the brain of computer
and MITOCHONDRIA IS THE POWERHOUSE OF THE CELL |
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snooggums
piefed.world
snooggums@piefed.world Joined: 2025-07-08 |
did you know that there is no sex going on in a Breeder Reactor? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor They're analogies to help us communicate ideas.
A breeder reactor is creating something, which is like the outcome of breeding. That name fits. |
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Skullgrid
lemmy.world
Skullgrid@lemmy.worldJoined: 2023-06-29 |
A breeder reactor is creating something, which is like the outcome of breeding. That name fits.
a hallucination is seeing something that's not there, which also fits. |
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Skullgrid
lemmy.world
Skullgrid@lemmy.worldJoined: 2023-06-29 |
When the system is intended to look like a random a person then randomness is fine. When the output is expected to be accurate, it should be the same each time so it can be verified as accurate. LLMs are being sold as doing both at the same time, but random plus consistent equals random.
throw it onto the pile of people being idiots |
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XLE
piefed.social
XLE@piefed.social Joined: 2025-06-23 Banned |
So, what can we glean from this? Here are a few of my observations.
So these researchers are left poking at the compiled code of a closed source database. What a pain. The funny part is, although they insist it's not a black box...
... The researchers clearly have no idea what the bad nodes are doing to make anything bad. They just can observe that when they are hit, a bad thing happens. So the nodes themselves are black boxes to them.
The "bad" nodes are everywhere. If you look at a 1,000th of the database, you will find them scattered across it. The mystery deepens.
The "bad" nodes are among the first ones added to models, before anything else is filtered or further trained. This is very funny because it implies they're part of something crucial.
They made a (second) new phrase: This earliest data that goes into the model, and persists after adding more data, they call "over-compliance" and insist it's the model trying to bullshit a user extra hard. Alternative hypothesis: what if this data is simply the basis for even making the results legible?
Never mind, they just said it outright. |
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XLE
piefed.social
XLE@piefed.social Joined: 2025-06-23 Banned |
a hallucination is seeing something that's not there, which also fits.
In AI, a "hallucination" is just as much "there" as a non-"hallucination." It's a way for scientists to stomp their foot and say that the wrong output is the computer's fault and not a natural consequence of how LLMs work. |
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XLE
piefed.social
XLE@piefed.social Joined: 2025-06-23 Banned |
This article is like reading the headline “Researchers have identified the cause of AIDS” and then you open it up and the body is a bunch of science jargon that basically says HIV. Concerning their origins, we trace these neurons back to the pre-trained base models and find that these neurons remain predictive for hallucination detection, indicating they emerge during pre-training. it sounds li...
That's incorrect. Wrong responses will still be generated even if you remove the element that randomizes the response for the same question. If that wasn't the case, this paper wouldn't exist. |
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XLE
piefed.social
XLE@piefed.social Joined: 2025-06-23 Banned |
throw it onto the pile of people being idiots
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XLE
piefed.social
XLE@piefed.social Joined: 2025-06-23 Banned |
But can anything be a H-NEURON?
Any data that makes AI people upset is an H-neuron. This includes both inaccurate responses, and accurate responses that the model designers were attempting to censor, such as "harmful" content. Infuriatingly, the researchers actually insist that offensive material is not factual material.
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snooggums
piefed.world
snooggums@piefed.world Joined: 2025-07-08 |
a hallucination is seeing something that's not there, which also fits.
Hallucinations requires perception. LLMs are just statistical models and do not have perceptions. It was a cute name early on, now it is used to deflect when the output is just plain wrong. |
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snooggums
piefed.world
snooggums@piefed.world Joined: 2025-07-08 |
amplifying H-Neurons’ activations systematically increases a spectrum of over-compliance behaviors – ranging from overcommitment to incorrect premises and heightened susceptibility to misleading contexts, to increased adherence to harmful instructions and stronger sycophantic tendencies. These findings suggest that H-Neurons do not simply encode factual errors, but rather represent a general te...
Prioritizing conversational compliance over factual integrity when the output is promoted as being factual is a design flaw. Saying double check the output does not excuse that flaw when LLM CEOS say their models are like someone with a PhD or that it can automate every white collar job within a year. |
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ageedizzle
piefed.ca
ageedizzle@piefed.caJoined: 2026-02-04 |
Prioritizing conversational compliance over factual integrity when the output is promoted as being factual is a design flaw. Saying double check the output does not excuse that flaw when LLM CEOS say their models are like someone with a PhD or that it can automate every white collar job within a year.
[deleted]
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XLE
piefed.social
XLE@piefed.social Joined: 2025-06-23 Banned |
[deleted]
For this particular paper, it seems like a design flaw got uncovered. And it may very well be part of the architecture of how LLMs are even readable to begin with, given how deep and universal the "bad" nodes are. I can't prove any AI company was aware of this, but they would have been in a much better position to realize it than researchers who have to do a postmortem on the models being crappy. And if they weren't aware of it, they're probably not very good at their jobs... |
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Peruvian_Skies
sh.itjust.works
Peruvian_Skies@sh.itjust.works Joined: 2024-05-19 |
So, what can we glean from this? Here are a few of my observations. Current studies largely treat LLMs as black boxes... Just as... neuroscience investigations into individual neuronal activity and synaptic interactions shape theories of cognition like learning and memory, analyzing neurons – the fundamental computational units of LLMs – is essential for decoding hallucination. By scrutinizing ...
So tue tldr is just what we already knew: LLMs predict the most likely word to come next and have no concept of "true" or "false" information. Indeed, to have such a concept would require understanding that information and any AI that actually understood information wouldn't be an LLM because LLMs are just fancy autocorrect. |
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XLE
piefed.social
XLE@piefed.social Joined: 2025-06-23 Banned |
So tue tldr is just what we already knew: LLMs predict the most likely word to come next and have no concept of "true" or "false" information. Indeed, to have such a concept would require understanding that information and any AI that actually understood information wouldn't be an LLM because LLMs are just fancy autocorrect.
There's a bit more to it: Obviously, if a model gets more correct data pumped into it, it's more likely to produce a correct output. But they found that at the core of every AI model they tested, when an incorrect output came along, certain nodes produced it. And they are some of the nodes at the earliest part of making the model - before data gets added. So with that in mind, the tl;dr is more like AI models have two goals: first be readable, then be correct. It appears the nodes causing incorrect outputs that are also intended to make the output readable. |
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snooggums
piefed.world
snooggums@piefed.world Joined: 2025-07-08 |
[deleted]
Since shop vacs which vacuum and suck up water exist, it could be both. |
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0ndead
infosec.pub
0ndead@infosec.pub Joined: 2024-12-15 |
No |
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athairmor
lemmy.world
athairmor@lemmy.world Joined: 2024-03-12 |
did you know that there is no sex going on in a Breeder Reactor? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor They're analogies to help us communicate ideas.
Nuclear energy companies aren’t trying to make people think that their reactors reproduce. AI companies are trying to make people think that their software is intelligent. The context matters. |
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HyperfocusSurfer
lemmy.dbzer0.com
HyperfocusSurfer@lemmy.dbzer0.com Joined: 2025-03-25 |
So, what can we glean from this? Here are a few of my observations. Current studies largely treat LLMs as black boxes... Just as... neuroscience investigations into individual neuronal activity and synaptic interactions shape theories of cognition like learning and memory, analyzing neurons – the fundamental computational units of LLMs – is essential for decoding hallucination. By scrutinizing ...
So, their approach can be used to flag likely hallucinated output and warn the user? |
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