What the title says. Well intentioned, often other "neurodivergent" people look at your life, your autism, and say: "you should mask harder."

For example, I accidentally said something that offended a friend. Won't go into detail, but it was me unintentionally coming off as arrogant, not something bad like a slur or hate speech.

I asked for advice (elsewhere) and the advice was universally, "you see, NT avoid this topic at all costs. Going forwards, know it is best to avoid this topic."

But isn't this just saying "mask harder and be more palatable for everyone else"?

Every piece of "autism advice" I see even in "neurodivergent friendly" communities is basically "how to be less autistic."

If I could will myself into being less autistic....I wouldnt even be here. So what gives? Is it clueless NT allies?

If the advice was saying NT avoid the topic, that would just mean they are masking it as well would it not?

I do generally notice that, though I don't necessarily agree that trying to treat others well is masking versus just choosing polite conversation.

Well, NT people mask too. I thought the goal of these communities was "ND dont need to mask 24/7! Accept who you are!" and then I hear "But limit your personality in public, it makes others uncomfortable."

People (including other autistic people) treat my autism as a liability and a nuisance. Thanks! I knew that!

Where's the line? I'm rude because I don't pick up on social cues....that's literally what I am diagnosed with.

"I think depressed people just need to be happier to avoid depression"

I think a lot of advice tends to be an explanation of a social rule, with the implication that following the rule (or "masking better") is preferred. Sometimes the insistence that rules must be followed is more explicit, which I find aggravating because I don't think social rules have to be followed, and there are many times where they should be broken. I think they're similar to literary or grammatical rules in that it's better to be aware of them and have a nuanced understanding of how people use them, so I can follow or break them more intentionally in conversation as my preferences dictate. For my money I'd rather people take the time to explain the rules they adhere to no matter how silly or damaging they are. At least then I can engage with the rule more tactically rather than being caught unaware when I accidentally break it.

you see, NT avoid this topic at all costs

I don't think this is a NT vs Autism thing. There are topics that, depending on the environment, are taboo and not to be discussed. Figuring out these rules is confusing (or at least, not automatic) for Autistic peeps, but actually following the rules is something both NT and autistic people must do. Whether or not you call it masking, it's still something that both groups are subjected to.

Don’t mask harder 🙅‍♂️

Mask smarter 👍

Well intentioned, often other "neurodivergent" people look at your life, your autism, and say: "you should mask harder."

Yeah pretty much, right? But is any other advice possible?

"Here's how to appear less autistic" is really the only usable piece of info when the problem is "I'm autistic and that's never going to change but it sometimes causes problems".

"Learn how to politely say Fuck you deal with it it's definitely going to happen again" is the only other realistic option but that strategy is only effective in limited contexts.

I see it more like "those poor NTs can't help it, here's how you deal with them" in the sense of, they're not smart enough to understand you, so you have to understand them. If I run into a problem where a child doesn't understand me, I don't expect the child to understand me better, I expect to explain it better.

If literal aliens visited the Earth, I would try to understand them, and at the same time I hope they'd try to understand me, but I can only control my own understanding, not "make them understand me".

It's not so much about "what you're doing is wrong" more about "you can control yourself but not them, so you can do better". At the same time, if you notice they're not even making an effort, and they should know better, you're in your right to point that out. If you talk with someone reasonable, they'll understand.

because our behaviors and personalities are seen as a burden. having to be mindful about somebody's limitations requires some amount of work and people don't want to be bothered.

If I masked any harder, I would become Jim Carrey's character in The Mask.

Yes, and I'm afraid that I (LSN, self-Dx with high certainty, awaiting formal Dx since early 2023) been guilty of giving this advice until some time last year, when a user on this very platform informed me that what I was suggesting was masking.

One major factor in this problem, I believe, is that a lot of the "raising awareness" stuff I've seen over the years tends to focus on just one part of our demographic (namely young, medium support needs boys), which is quite counter-productive. This is likely the main reason why none of my teachers ever thought to have me tested, and why I was 17 before I thought "Hmm, I can't shut up about Linux, I have a bunch of autistic friends, and I just watched three solid hours of old PSAs. I wonder if there's a reason for all that?"

There are times when masking is a good idea, this potentially being one of them (I do not know the context); but on the whole, it really isn't fair to do it all the time just to placate neurotypicals when they are more than capable of dealing with it without long-term psychological harm.

I think there are situations where consciously choosing to follow a social convention against one's "natural" inclination (which I think is a type of masking) is a good idea. For example, if someone has recently experienced a death in their family, I might think twice about making death-related jokes, or even bringing up the subject of death at all. I don't think these rules are inviolable; with the right context I think humor can help with grief. But I think it requires a level of intimacy with the person grieving and their relationship with the deceased, and thoughtlessly saying any thing that comes to mind can cause fresh hurts for someone already hurting a lot. That's a rule that I consciously try to follow and think very carefully before I break it.

There are other rules that I will willingly and gleefully break because I think they're harmful, e.g. "It's [unpatriotic / blasphemous / rude] to criticize [the government / church leaders / authorities]". That rule is bad and exists to reinforce the power of people who already have power, so I deliberately try to break it, and I try to catch myself when I find myself unintentionally following it.

I think a lot of "just mask harder" advice comes down to people's (well-founded or otherwise) belief that a certain rule should be followed, sometimes without question (I often find this axiomatic take explained with some variant of "that's just the rule"). I like learning about the rule even if I take the implicit recommendation of following the rule with a grain of salt, but I do find the implication that rules have to be followed because they're rules tiring.

Learning how to pick up social cues in a rote way instead of an imitative way, essentially, is a treatment. I mean, I know it’s hard to pick up on norms and mores naturalistically with autism, and we should all be graceful and respectful of that as well. Just you know, if someone says something is rude or hurtful, that’s not an attack on your inability to judge that social situation by default…it is information. Even NT do impose expectations on other NT behavior across settings that is sometimes incomprehensible.

It's a skill that we find harder to master than others. That's all.

Some are naturally gifted at math. Some can learn a new language effortlessly. Others have to practice and pay attention carefully or they make an error.

It took me 30 years. My personality is now permanently different. It's no longer a mask just like learning a language and culture eventually becomes normal.

Stanley Ipkiss

Sometimes the advice isn't centered around interactions with other people.

Like - wearing sunglasses can help with feelings of overstimulation during the daytime.

• running a fan at night for constant white noise can help you sleep

• Liquid electrical tape is a great way to cover up those little LED lights on everything

• 10-20 seconds of cold shower can help your body with thermoregulation

My problem is that so much of discussion about autism is centered around social interaction, that people begin to think autism is just a problem of fitting in, and if only other people could be more receptive everything would be better... well it wouldn't make the sun any less bright!

Specifically, that's a Symptomatic treatment. It doesn't fix autism or make you less autistic, but can sometimes help you meet life goals.

Yep, that's why I only choose to hang out with other neurodivergent people or people who are willing to treat ND people's needs as at least as important as their more toxic social norms.

Public interactions you have to conform to survive, but personal connections are your choice.

Lol sob 😭

"You need to learn to say no, because you are working well beyond your capacity and you need to take care of yourself"

Literally every time I say no it's seen as the beginning of a negotiation. I'm not being vague either. "Here is some data. I don't have time to review it with you today. Have a look and we'll discuss next week." Somehow that is interpreted as "Waltz into my office right now and ask about the data"

Or "I am not looking after that, go speak to (other engineer)" becomes 'Potato is handling it"

And like, these people are peers at best. They aren't trying to politely tell me I'm not doing my job or something.

The absolute worst is "I'm going to need to sit with the info you gave me before I can respond" becomes them just repeating themselves or trying to tell me what my response might be. Or when I say "I actually can't remember, but I can look it up" becomes them guessing. Not only have they completely ignored what I said to them, I'm now 100% checked out and every last drop of executive function is gone.

There is no objective line, but if your actions result in your friends getting hurt that is sad, and if your friends decide not to hang out with you because of the chances you'll hurt them again that is a fair choice. You may choose not to put effort into understanding other people's perspectives but this means most people with healthy boundaries will either get hurt at some point and leave, or recognize that is bound to happen and leave pre-emptively. So if you want friends that treat you right or a partner who isn't miserable, then you will have to put effort into understanding other people's perspectives.

Your friend was offended for a reason. People assume you care why or how to avoid it because that is a necessary part of any healthy friendship. If you do not care, then I hope your friend finds friends that do care so they, at least, can be happy. I also hope that you have friends and you are happy, but an unhealthy friendship does not make you happy and it barely counts as friendship anyway.

their more toxic social norms

I wouldn't say politeness and tact are toxic.

Do you want the same condescendence towards you?

i wouldnt say you know what youre talking about

That was toxic.

Don't call your mother fat, don't push the person standing at the crosswalk in front of a bus, don't cut someone's hair when sitting behind them because it bothers you... Socially unaccepted actions, why, because they are. In another universe they all may be acceptable. Our cultures calls them rude, murder, and possibly assault or maybe just impolite. Why. Because stuff and things. Mostly, it'll hurt someone's feelings.

Really I think it is, our freedom ends where anothers begins. Thus, we are free to do what we wish, but if your happiness impeeds on anothers happiness, then there is an issue.

Edit*. When the law doesn't match that, then I feeo government has failed

I don't think the reasoning behind unspoken customs is unknowable or arbitrary. I think part of being a good person is analyzing the rules that are handed down by our elders and deciding which are good to follow and which are good to leave behind. Circumstances change, new information comes to light that our parents weren't privy to. Or, maybe they just made convenient or selfish choices when deciding which rules were important. Sometimes those convenient or selfish choices get codified into law, and when they do, it's up to us to fix them. I dunno if that's government failing so much as it's just how government works.

New information coming to light is 90% propaganda, 10% truth. If we got rid of all borders and made all insurance companies illegal while saying denying a person care in terms of health would put your organization in prison. It would fix nationalism immediately, drag health costs down, and fix many issues people struggle with. The person who works for their family isn't an issue, the government that doesn't let them is. It doesn't matter where or who they are, they were segregated due to old rules, mainly the British decision to segregate to isolate and isolate and divide to rule. Did wars happen before then, yes. But the way to end all wars isn't through segregation, but rather assimilation throughly so all are accepted without question.

Sorry, end rant

All is well. I also find the problem overwhelming when I try to think about it all at once, all the cruelty we inflict on each other because we were taught to, or because it feels easier to keep rules that afford us the barest of privilege over our neighbors. It's a lot.

Makes sense, thank you for your response. I am often unsure how to make sure people know that I am being sarcastic or sincere. So thank you for your input. Appreciated

of course ❤️

May every road rise to meet you

I basically made masking a hyperfixation for a while, until I had a good enough grasp of NT social interaction that I could drop the mask more and more. Then I just came across as cool, confident, and interesting when I was doing my own thing. It's kind of a "Learn the rules so you can break them" situation. NT conventions aren't really all that complicated if you devote a bit of time to study. If you can steer your fixations at all, it's worth the investment so you can get on with your life with fewer interruptions.

The problem is that the rules for being "polite" and "tactful" are seemingly arbitrary and impossible to understand.

I know there are facial expressions you are supposed to make in certain situations to make your words work as polite, but I cannot consistently figure out how to do it.

Help me understand.

What is not toxic to you:

• A person has a disability which makes task x difficult to perform.
• Everyone agrees that this person has this disability and that this disability makes it hard to perform task x
• If they try to perform task x they may not understand they are doing it incorrectly, again because of the disability that everyone agrees is real and this person has.
• no one is expected to create an environment where task x is made easier
• when this person fails at task x, it is treated as a moral failing
• inability to perform task x puts access to fundamental needs at risk

What is toxic:

• being told that you do not understand the experience that someone is trying to express

Is this accurate?

Which is a shame, because it means more of the effort falls onto us. We have to be extra careful of what upsets NTs, but NTs aren't instructed (nor expected) to be careful of what upsets us. To be fair, what that is can differ strongly from person to person.

It just sucks when you run into a spot where either side needs to give - like when your energy is low and somebody complains about your vocal tone. On your side, you're already extending as much energy as possible and falling short. On the NT's side, they don't necessarily know that the reason for the change in tone is because of something you can't control, and it has nothing to do with your feelings toward others. I ran into this issue recently and it basically meant I had to entrust someone else to explain to the other person what the issue was, because I didn't have the spoons to explain why tone is a lifelong issue and why mentioning it triggers me. Thankfully, my workplace is understanding, but I've been in countless more situations where I'd be expected to somehow give more of myself just to appease the NTs who don't consider what their words mean to me (even though I've been made acutely aware through life of what my words can mean to others.) These situations usually fall 100% onto us to resolve, even when we aren't capable of it in any given moment. Which sucks so hard.

I wish there was more public understanding of our struggles. I wish masking so well didn't result in harsher social punishments when our masks inevitably slip. It would be a fairer world if NTs were taught and expected to respect our sides, instead of just us being expected to navigate the minefield of NT socialization. Alas, we're not there yet. But, the more we talk about our sides, the more NTs may come to understand us. Hopefully.

I don't see how it can't be a NT vs autism thing.

They're only taboo subjects because society (primarily NTs) decided they were taboo.

Autistic people have to follow the rules set by NTs, not the other way around.

We all wear a mask.

i share in your experiences and frustrations. i've had similar moments throughout my life when i felt the responsibility was entirely on me to make sure the social interaction went smoothly. i have tried to explain to people how i find certain social expectations exhausting and draining but that isn't really understood and often forgotten by the next time it happens.

Unfortunately the world isn’t made for us and doesn’t understand — or want to understand — us. The only thing we have the ability to change is ourselves. It’s tiring and overwhelming and stupid, but using logic to cater to others emotional irrationality is just something we have to do to survive.

Yes, “mask harder” is a bad suggestion, but it’s the only one we have the power to do anything about. 😞

I'm not autistic (that I know of), but I do have ADHD so I can be a bit extra sometimes. I've realized that it's a different mask for every person or group of friends.

Occasionally I run into people with whom the mask is pretty much transparent. Those are my favorite people. I'm a lot more fun around them. So as long as I get to choose, these are the people I hang out with.

My current job (well, former job - I'm a contractor now) is actually great, because like half the team is people like that. I can make stupid ass jokes or rant about things, and it's all good.

I deliberately started masking less, and 6 months later my wife left me.

They’re only taboo subjects because society (primarily NTs) decided they were taboo.

Autistic people have to follow the rules set by NTs, not the other way around.

I'm 50/50 on this.

People running a social scene (generally NTs) set the cadence, yes.

Thoughts/questions/ponderings:

• Do autistic people, as individuals, not have rules in their own head about how people should interact with them?
• Are there not rules that both autistic peeps and NTs have in common?
• In social groups composed entirely of autistic people, would another set of norms emerge that could get someone in the group scolded if they broke them, just like in the rest of society?
• When a NT person upsets an autistic person because they broke a norm they weren't familiar with, wouldn't they also feel bad and try to remember not to do that in the future?

Some taboos exist for good reason and apply across the board. We don't greet strangers by asking them how their genitals are feeling, for example (although that would be hilarious).

I think I agree with Savvy more.

I'm sure this is an inappropriate question, but out of curiosity, are you a man or a woman?

I'm just always curious with this because women are typically diagnosed later or not at all because women figure out masking earlier and better.

I wonder if it's purely self preservation on the part of women or if women are more explicit in social rules with one another?

That last line reminds me of Goku patting people's genitals in DB to determine their gender lmao

I'm pretty sure I've annoyed allistics (NT or ND) friends and acquaintances by bringing up philosophy, sex, politics, religion, etc much more readily than normally "appropriate".

I'll continue to otherwise be friendly with them but on this they can get fucked. The only time I'm enduring "safe" small talk is when I'm at work.

The key here is to accept that not everyone needs to be your friend... unless you live in the middle of nowhere or in rural bumfuck (or as mentioned before you are at work). Then because the number of friends you'll potentially have will always be countable on 1-2 hands and you wont be able to afford losing one.

The actual good advice is: move to highly populated areas, accept that you'll alienate a large portion of people, and settle on the percentage of cool ones.

Unfortunately, moving to a populated place is expensive. So first get a job, and save up for the move.

“Read the room” is not a rule. “Read the room” is a skill of knowing how the people in the room are feeling.

The rule that skill serves is, “don’t say things that people in the room can’t handle hearing right now”

Obvious example: avoid chattering happily about your recent raise in front of people who are miserable they just got laid off.

Usually, people dismissively saying “read the room” mean, “I know that you are capable of feeling and understanding other people’s emotions, would you please fucking pay attention to that skill right now?” (This is plenty common even for not-autistic people) But of course for autistic people that assumption is just incorrect. People saying that to autistic people need to read the room.

As an autistic woman, it's been self preservation for me. Other non autistic women have not been explicit about the rules. Quite the opposite lol.