I don’t agree with their Uyghur genocide, but here we are.

Yeah it's a pretty wild claim.

China agreed when they funneled weapons and funds to Iran then Gaza leading up to the music festival attack. China agreed when they vetoed the ceasefire agreement with release of hostages, the only ceasefire the USA would sign off on. China agreed when Iran and Syria were waging war on their own peoples.

China didn't seem to mind funding and arming extremist militants in Pakistan to attack Pakistan and India. China's got its fingers in so many pies I'm actually astonished that they're not on good terms with the Taliban in Afghanistan, I guess they didn't see a need to support that one particular bloody revolution.

And hey, I don't like Israel either, Netanyahu should have died and Rabin should have lived in the good timeline, but we can't support red fascists even if we don't like the blue ones.

We need to stop repeating CIA propaganda on Lemmy

We need to stop repeating Chinese propaganda on Lemmy.

We need to stop repeating all propagandas including the chinese propaganda

I don't think the CIA would waste time countering Chinese propaganda like this, stats show propaganda is most effective when targeting people who already lean your way with confirmation bias and least effective when confronting skeptics or critics.

Rabin promised less than a state exactly how the oslo accords are currently implemented. Fuck him too.

Here what the Israeli historian Illan Pappe said

ISM: Yair Lapid, the head of the Ministry of Finance of the new coalition government, stated on 20th May that Israel is not going to stop the colonization of the West Bank or end subsidies for illegal settlers, which in fact will not only continue but increase. Do you think that any switch of parties in power could truly make an impact on this situation?

IP: No. We haven’t had any party or leader different from the others, including Rabin, who became a hero after he was shot. Israelis like Lapid are always busy implementing policies so that the land has no Palestinians – so in this sense Lapid is just continuing what everyone before him was doing. The problem they have is not technical – they know how to do it, they have a script. They do not build new settlements, but they allow the natural growth of the current settlements, while Palestinians are not allowed natural growth. Then they say they’re not building a new settlement, but need to build a new neighbourhood because the settlement population has grown. So you can see from this that they do not have any technical problem, it’s more that they maintain this funny dialogue with the world: “You know that we are colonizing, you know that we are ethnically cleansing the Palestinians, you know that we are keeping them in prison, but still we are playing this game where we are speaking about a peace process.”

https://palsolidarity.org/2013/07/interview-with-ilan-pappe-the-basic-israeli-ideology-zionism-is-the-problem/

It's extremely easy to verify that Rabin was pro-peace and much better than any PM who came after the Israeli right wing assassinated him. I don't think that ISM run website you linked to is doing Palestine any favors by standing against any kind of peaceful coexistence.

Everything that the news tells us is at least partially propaganda.

You’re one to talk.

Yes I am . I never whitewashed china and russia

Ilan Pappé is a respectable Israeli historian. It is pretty clear that Rabin was not pro-peace. You Israel good, Netanyahu bad guys are the one hurting the Palestinian cause. Just because more extremist then him killed him doesn't mean he was a good israeli leader

His own words

The Jewish people, which has known suffering and pain, has also known how to preserve its faith, its heritage and its tradition during thousands of years of exile and has realized the dream of generations. We have, with our own eyes, been privileged to see the return to Zion, the return of the children to their borders.

after two thousand years, restored to its** lawful owners** -- the members of the Jewish people. On its land, we have built an exceptional national home and state.

In the framework of the permanent solution, we aspire to reach, first and foremost, the State of Israel as a Jewish state, at least 80% of whose citizens will be, and are, Jews.

We would like this to be an entity which is less than a state and which will independently run the lives of the Palestinians under its authority. The borders of the State of Israel, during the permanent solution, will be beyond the lines which existed before the Six-Day War. We will not return to the 4 June 1967 lines.

First and foremost, united Jerusalem, which will include both Ma’ale Adumim and Givat Ze’ev -- as the capital of Israel, under Israeli sovereignty

East Jerusalem is Palestinian

D. The establishment of blocs of settlements in Judea and Samaria, like the one in Gush Katif.

Judea and Samaria was destroyed and not by the Palestinians. Only the west bank exists and all of it is Palestinian

He supported the colonization and did not support returning all rightful land to Palestinians which is pre-67 borders

Israeli settlement construction in the West Bank and East Jerusalem significantly accelerated during the years of the Oslo Accord talks

https://jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pm-rabin-speech-to-knesset-on-ratification-of-oslo-peace-accords

Maybe you should educate yourself on the Uyghurs

Did i deny the uyghurs being opressed?

I don't agree with them harassing countries in the South China Sea.

Do you?

That quote about Palestine is a thousand times better than what Israel is doing now, so again, he was the good timeline and now is the bad timeline.

I consider propaganda to be lies paid for by the state to further its own interests. Maybe the Chinese news is mostly propaganda by that definition, but not Europe and the west, and certainly not random internet commentators who say "Fuck China."

Nothing but a full sovereign Palestinian state with all it's right on pre-67 border is acceptable . Not a single country would accept a partial liberation of it's territory

That statement is no different than calling for war. The enemy of good should never be perfection or you will have neither in the end.

You would never accept your country being occupied than only part of it is returned to you. It is pretty clear you don't support the end of occupation. Why are you denying palestinians rights?

That operates on the assumption I love my country deeply and I absolutely don't, the only reason I would ever fight for it is if I hated the invaders more and even then if there was no chance of success I'd definitely be spending my time trying to build a better future than wasting it on fruitless hatred.

Look, Palestinian rights would increase under a leader like Rabin and it opens up potential futures where reparations are paid, individual ownerships of private properties get returned or remunerated, etc. Saying the only option is separate Palestinian statehood with no steps taked in between to accomplish that is the stance standing in the way of Palestinian rights. Before respect for rights and freedoms can be obtained from enemies you first need to achieve peaceful coexistence with them.

That's a very narrow definition of propaganda. Corporations can serve propaganda to further their own interests.

In the context of a discussion about the CIA and Chinese, I don't think corporations are really relevant. There aren't really corporations large enough to compete on a global stage, though they can operate together with an oppressive government.

I think to say that Google and Amazon don't have more geopolitical sway than some countries is naive.

"Some countries" is a low bar, we're in a discussion of the two largest and most hostile militaries on earth. Do you think Google paid trolls are in this comment section?

Rabin said he will not give palestinian a state and will not returned all part of the region they stole in 67. You are denying palestinians rights. You support settler colonialism. No amount of mental gymnastic will change that fact. You will not advocate for ukraine giving up part of their land to russia. You would never accept a russisn version of Rabin either because you are a racist

Me saying Rabin was a better PM concerning Palestine doesn't support colonialism. Me supporting coexistence between Israelis and Palestinians isn't support of colonialism. You wanting to cover up past bloodshed with future bloodshed, removing people who lived their lives on a plot of land, is support of colonialism. TBH I don't give a fuck about either Israel or Palestine, neither has any right for militant action against the other.

You should wish someone better than Rabin.

Rabin said he will not give palestinian a state and will not returned all part of the region they stole in 67. You are denying palestinians rights. You support settler colonialism. No amount of mental gymnastic will change that fact. You will not advocate for ukraine giving up part of their land to russia. You would never accept a russisn version of Rabin either because you are a racist

Wishes don't come true, figure out an actionable plan.

An actionable plan should include all land stolen after 1967 back anf give palestinians all thier right including an army to defend itself.

Rabin said he will not give palestinian a state and will not returned all part of the region they stole in 67. You are denying palestinians rights. You support settler colonialism. No amount of mental gymnastic will change that fact. You will not advocate for ukraine giving up part of their land to russia. You would never accept a russisn version of Rabin either because you are a racist

Edit:

Wishes don't come true, figure out an actionable plan.

And hey, I don't like Israel either, Netanyahu should have died and Rabin should have lived in the good timeline, but we can't support red fascists even if we don't like the blue ones

That's a wish lol.

Ukraine can win the war against Russia. Ukraine has not been occupied for almost a century and surrounded on all sides. Palestinians cannot win by, for example, attacking music festivals using funds and weapons routed from China via Iran. Like it or not, Palestinian's only prospects for a future rely solely on garnering support from Europe, the USA, and even from within Israel itself. Telling them to go and reclaim their land by force is asking them to kill themself.

Rabin was assassinated by Palestine's enemies for a reason.

If ukraine can't win you would support Ukranian giving up part of their land?

Palestinians can win if all those genocidial supporting countries : the usa , canada, china etc did it's obligations they accepted by signing the genocide convention

Rabin said he will not give palestinian a state and will not returned all part of the region they stole in 67. You are denying palestinians rights. You support settler colonialism.

In a pure hypothetical, absolutely foreign to our reality, if Ukraine was occupied for almost a century and surrounded by all sides, then Ukrainians would need to be organizing with Russians and other nations to enact change as peacefully as possible. Violence would be more beneficial to Russia than to Ukraine. It's kind of like how Ghandi didn't march trucks full of explosives into London.

I'm going to leave this conversation now because it stopped being productive after about the second or third reply.

At least you are consistant with denying people right to a full state with all it's rights given by internstional laws and morality

Everything bad that my government does is only alleged by america

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reactions_to_the_persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China

We are living in a world right now where Google and Amazon have paid for the campaign of and direct access to the president.

We also lived in the same world where an oil company installed their chairman as the vice president who then was able to get the entire administration to invade Iraq and used the entire media apparatus to lie about why. It feels like you're intentionally using a narrow definition of propaganda to minimize the effects of corporate propaganda.

Chinese owned TikTok and Russian troll farms also bought access. Elon Musk got fired from his advisor position despite buying Twitter, like 50x as much money as Kamala's campaign funds total. There is no friendship or loyalty from people like Trump, purely transactional, and right now Amazon and Google dont have enough to offer in order to tell him what to do. They support him because he lowers their taxes and weakens regulatory bodies.