We have actual data on Taiwanese economy but clearly you know better. 98% reliant? I trust that wholeheartedly!

Stole their autonomy, reduced social freedoms, and imprisoned activists creating an environment of fear and oppression.

What autonomy, they lived in a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie imposed by Britain.

What Social freedoms? The freedom to die under bridges or in coffin apartments or to live in literal tinder boxes?

This seems to be complete conjecture though.

Taiwan would stop claiming it tomorrow officially, but China would see that as a declaration of independence and justification to invade.

You mean freed them from a council imposed by the British, elected by the crown and large businesses?

And so what new representation rights did they provide them after they annexed them, exactly? Or did they round up and purge the pro-autonomy and independence activists?

What Social freedoms? The freedom to die under bridges or in coffin apartments or to live in literal tinder boxes?

Sorry, what, you depict pre-CCP controlled Hong Kong as if it was Somalia, or something.

History has proven otherwise.

It turns out, that while everyone says that arms races and escalation lead to conflict... Actually, what we've seen is that waiving a big stick is the only true deterrent.

I don't believe you actually need any of that. The thing is, nuclear weapons are scary. When it comes to fear, actually capabilities barely figure in. Because what if it gets through anyway? What if the west sells them a super advanced delivery system? What if they try something we didn't think of?

Better not risk it.

I depict it as living in a colony of Britain, which it literally was.

And the coffin apartments, homelessness, and lack of fire safety are pretty well known. Have you been to Hong Kong? There's massive inequality and some of the highest rent in the world because the government blocked the expansion of housing for decades.

I depict it as living in a colony of Britain, which it literally was.

And what did the people of Hong Kong want exactly?

And the coffin apartments, homelessness, and lack of fire safety are pretty well known.

These are things all "well known" in lots of highly populated urban cities. Is Hong Kong supposed to be unique here? Are you referring to any data that specifically identifies Hong Kong being uniquely ailed by the worst excesses of urban blight in comparison to other similar cities? What does this have to do with cracking down on pro-independence movements and activism in the city?

Tiber and Xinjiag too

The current governing party of Taiwan is for peaceful reintegration with mainland China. I think that’s the best path forward as well.

I think it would be a lot easier for China to cooperate peacefully with countries it perceives within its sphere of influence if there wasn't a hostile global military hegemon maintaining a bunch of military bases and naval fleets within striking distance.

Sorry, the DPP? What does that mean in practice for citizens of Taiwan?

Similarly, Taiwan would feel less inclined to call-on and defer to this military hegemon if China didn't reject its right to self-determination.

It goes both ways.

Alabama isn't THAT bad.

If he stopped being a hostile dictator looking to conquer Taiwan he would achieve the same thing, no invasion needed!

Peaceful or fair?

For peaceful, I think that China needs to make it so the world doesn't depend on them for high end chip manufacturer, so the USA stops caring about them because they're not a critical strategic national interest.
Then they just invade.

The world isn't doing shit about Gaza, the world is barely doing anything about Ukraine. I think the world sits by and watches it happen, if they're not a critical strategic interest.

And somehow I get downvoted and you don't. How symmetric.

You probably got downvoted because you're blaming Taiwan for leaning on the USA because the USA is not an existential threat to them, but China is.

Or there is the “send a bunch of PRC soldiers to the ROC and let’s see what will happen”

They won’t run out of people for the meat grinder, that’s fò xiù as would sunglasses-man say

Are you suggesting that a Chinese invasion of Taiwan would be a peaceful act? What?

International law is what the CCP claims gives them the right. So no, I am not implying, I am stating it is relevant. Even if you disagree with the law, how do you expect this to be resolved peacefully without international law?

Nah, just think people who are ignorant of their own laws should think more before they make their ignorance more widely known.

Let’s cut the bullshit: a lot of what’s being said here is just garden-variety racism dressed up as “concern for democracy.” The way some of you talk about mainland Chinese people(like we’re brainwashed bugs, NPCs, or extensions of the state) is dehumanizing. Full stop. You don’t speak this way about Americans living under mass surveillance, police violence, and corporate rule. You don’t speak this way about Europeans crushed by austerity. Somehow it’s only Chinese people who get stripped of agency.

IWe’re not a hive mind. We argue, complain, adapt, survive, organize families, build lives, same as anyone else. Reducing 1.4 billion people to propaganda victims just so you can feel morally superior is chauvinism. You can criticize the Chinese government without pretending the population is subhuman or that fuck x is legitimate criticism.

And this Hong Kong nostalgia is especially grotesque. You’re romanticizing a British colony run explicitly for banks and property tycoons. No elections for governors. Workers packed into coffin apartments. People waiting decades for public housing. Extreme inequality baked into law. But because it flew a Union Jack and spoke English, suddenly it becomes a paradise of “freedom”? That tells me everything about whose suffering you care about.

You also keep pretending Taiwan exists in some magical vacuum. It doesn’t. It’s the unresolved end of a civil war, frozen in place by US military power, and now functions as an unsinkable aircraft carrier pointed at the Chinese coast. Any major power on Earth would see that as an existential threat. The US would lose its mind if China parked missiles off California. But when China objects, suddenly it’s “authoritarian aggression.” (who remembers the Cuban missile crisis)

If you actually care about peace, stop parroting racist bullshit narratives. Stop flattening Chinese people into stereotypes. Stop acting like Western militarization of East Asia is neutral or benevolent. You don’t have to like the CPC. But if your worldview starts from “Chinese people are brainwashed and inferior,” even if you phrase it with better pr you're a racist.

I don't expect it to be resolved peacefully. Imperialism rarely is.

Edit: also, the UN is a joke. It's just a tool the security council uses to bully other nations. It exists entirely for their benefit. This is like pointing to law under monarchy to support the king's position. It's totally circular.

When does saying that "Taiwan should have the right to self-determination" require making any xenophobic or racist claims about Chinese people?

The way some of you talk about mainland Chinese people(like we’re brainwashed bugs, NPCs, or extensions of the state) is dehumanizing. Full stop. You don’t speak this way about Americans living under mass surveillance, police violence, and corporate rule.

I've definitely seen this type of rhetoric being directed at Americans more and more as our current president continues to fuck up everything.

You tell me. Why do so many feel the need to use the Chinese civil war split to push racism, xenophobia and chauvinism against the Chinese? Saying Taiwan should be independent isn't what I'm taking issue with even if I disagree with that statement personally. It's the racism that you(general you not you specifically) accompany it with.

Maybe, but it’s nowhere near the same scale or normalization. Say something positive about China(from infrastructure to poverty reduction)and it’s instantly “propaganda,” “brainwashed,” “you can’t trust anything from there.” Americans don’t get treated that way as a people. US media is taken as baseline reality despite massive corporate and state influence, while Chinese society unfortunately often gets dismissed wholesale as incapable of independent thought.

Realistic? The current status quo of everyone pretending Taiwan isn't a country and China not invading.

China isn't going to accept an independent Taiwan for a variety of reasons. That likely won't change unless there is a war.

Exactly my point, he won't calm down

You tell me. Why do so many feel the need to use the Chinese civil war split to push racism, xenophobia and chauvinism against the Chinese?

I don't know. Am I doing that when I say that Taiwan should ideally be an independent state because that's ultimately what they want?

No? I would question it being what they want as a whole I'm not sure it's that clear an issue. But if that's all you said then my comment obviously doesn't apply to you. ???

I'm not saying it's a big issue, but status-quo or status-quo with a view to independence (combined constitute a majority of polling on the matter) very much indicate wanting to maintain independence de facto - combined with a majority of pro-Taiwan identity in polling.

"Reunification" scores very badly.

Or one of the two collapses and the other one assumes power. Taiwan could concede which I don't hope they do but technically its possible.

And you'd be foolish to think China's rhetoric and threats doesn't impact how people vote on that. In any case, "Reunification" is very much the least favourite choice from all of them.

And Taiwan is already a de facto independent state.

I can literally read their polling on this and in a binary choice between official independence and "reunification", the former wins out.

Right, which is why throwing the situation into chaos to force a non-issue is completely absurd.

I didn't say anything should change. Just that they do not want to be incorporated into China.

That’s not what you said. What you actually said was “Taiwan should ideally be an independent state because that’s ultimately what they want?” That sounds a lot like calling for formal independence, not the status quo.

I do believe it's what they want, but geopolitical pressures and reality ultimately get the response we see above. What we can see is that, eliminating the safe, friction-free option of status quo that about 7-8% want to unify and 25-26% want to officially seek independence.

Now this isn't me saying they should actually do that now, but simply that is how I interpret the data.

No, eliminating the safe, friction-free option of status quo shows that 4% want to officially seek independence.

As compared to 1% wanting unification.

The majority wants to maintain the status quo without moving in either direction. A supermajority wants to maintain the status quo while moving in one direction or the other. But all of their voices are ignored by chauvinistic Westerners who want to ignore what they want and force the issue because that’s what they want

Who is doing this? Name people actively trying to encourage this.

with these nonsense excuses like “they only say that because they’re being influenced by the existing material conditions” and “if we ignore 95% of the responses, people actually agree with me.”

Do you think people answer polls like this with no understanding or regard of actual geopolitical reality, or something? Do you think the reality on the floor is of no relevance to them? Material conditions suddenly have no relevance, do they?

Who fucking cares! We’re talking about 4% vs 1%! What about what everybody else wants??

I also think the drastic difference between "status quo now, independence later" and "status quo now, unification later" also matters heavily too.

Skavau@piefed.social, for starters.

Quote me. Quote me where I said they should seek independence right now.

No, what I think is that actual geopolitical reality is a relevant factor that shouldn’t just be arbitrarily disregarded, as you seem to want. Incorporating material conditions into your poll response is not grounds for it being thrown out, jfc.

When did I say the poll should be "thrown out"? I'm just giving my reading of it.