Your opinion about casing of letters and the meaning of such, the fundamental overlap between that and the broader dialog around communicating respectfully regarding gender - these cannot be meaningfully disentangled nor discussed in this comment thread or governance decision. Your points are made worse by your addendum.

You were asked politely in the post submission not to make those questions the focus here. You can of course do as you wish, to an important degree (important to me, I mean) your freedom counts. Nonetheless, I would see that as distracting from what aims to be a much narrower discussion and decision, and your own typing suggests you think so too.

Not much to defend with the addendum, let it go friend.

like this?

being as I haven't seen any evidence that these are all the same person, very yes.

pretending for a moment that we're certain these are all the same person (I think it's likely) still yes. i see a young ND Trans person trying to find the identity that suits them much more than I see a malicious troll committing ban evasion, but maybe that's more me projecting than it is Them.

i think a vote if They end up doing that with "They are unbanning Themself" would easily pass, I don't think we need to do it preemptively

I looked through my private messages and only found one of the DMs, it's possible the others were deleted:

::: spoiler DM Trolling

:::

I'm having trouble locating the comment where Grail advocated for downvote brigading, if I can locate it I will update my comment. I don't think it was removed because it would've shown in Their modlog.

"Please publicly rehash the paradox of tolerance for me, but my own comment makes it clear I'm smart enough to get there myself if I just go look"

That's what this sounds like to me.

Grail is nowhere near as annoying as Drag imho. However generally I really dislike sockjacketing people without solid evidence, like this. OTOH I do understand that trolls need to be dealt with summarily so avoid more damage to the communities. I just feel we don't need to try to connect them to previous trolls to do so.

I'm going to abstain from this one as I am not particularly bothered either way.

Disagree/remain federated.

One, it seems like They dislike our instance. Let Them defederate on their end if They have a problem.

Two, They are weird but other than not liking (some of) us, I think They're fine. They have strong opinions but I don't dislike Them. I can also forgive quite a lot. I'm used to seeing differing opinions online. It doesn't bother me. I've had vitriol thrown my way online for over 30 years for just standing for something. I've gotten used to it. Sure, there are some dangerous opinions out there, but we don't have to let them ruin our day. I understand if some people want to defederate with this individual — I'm not sure if capitalisation is needed there, sorry — but they can also block Them.

Anecdotal, but I recall having a conversation with Grail about Their pronouns, but it wasn't about the pronouns themselves, it was about Their difficulty in getting them to show up. I think that was that person. Anyway, I thought it was odd that They want to use capitalised pronouns, and had a few thoughts about that which are not relevant, but ultimately I thought They were alright.

I've blocked users who annoy me. I could tell you why, but my reasons are my own and I wouldn't expect others to agree with me.

I disagree with defederation, but I'm not opposed. Because, like I have reasons that are personal to me, db0 and other users have reasons that are personal to them. So I do appreciate it being put to a vote. That's the right way to do it. But, I vote no. However, I have no petition for anyone to vote either way.

https://anarchist-archive.org/library/en/anonymous-not-liking-someone-doesnt-mean-theyre-a-cop-on-bad-jacketing

@PiraHxCx@lemmy.dbzer0.com FWIW This is linked to in the instance rules at https://wiki.dbzer0.com/divisions-by-zero/the-golden-rules/

This is a simple majority vote

@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com is this just a display error? the proposal says it needs 2/3 though we’re also past that

I've not had the pleasure of dealing with Them.

From the discussion here.. They can fuck off.

Let's defed and be done with it.

Soulism is a troll internet meme ideology FFS...

That doesn't mean there aren't people who genuinely believe in it anyway. I'm not a soulist myself, but I am an anarchist and a bit of an antirealist, and that's almost what soulism is- just those two things combined

What do you mean? The voting isn't done

What?

I've interacted with this person. I believe you even screenshotted conversation snippets I was involved either before or after in that thread. They are not capable of discourse.

Grail is neurodivergent (trans and NPD afaik), so we should be willing to make some accommodations for Their behaviour

As someone once told me, bad behavior is not excused by status (I'm paraphrasing the condition slightly). You have to own your actions and words on some level.

If someone is annoying/frustrating and trolling you, then they are also causing those same disturbances to others such as your users. It is why I ban trolls that are negatively affecting others and do not align with dbzer0. Granted, most of my bans are bots. Grail was annoying for sure and I stopped replying to this user because I didn't want to get banned after seeing others mixing up the capitals. Yes, I struggled at first before realizing blahaj was right about this.

Once Grail started comparing veganism with AI, I felt the troll became more obvious, too obvious. The suffering and deaths of real animals is not comparable to so called 'AI slavery'. This 'AI' is just a LLM spitting random auto-complete with no consciousness. I don't ask that our users become vegan, but to troll vegans and parrot antiveganism is just trolling leftists for no real reason (the hex was based yet again). I don't lose sleep over banning these trolls, YDM imo.

I'm not sure if drag is Grail, I know drone rights was also PM_ME_FAT_ENBIES, but I could not tell for certain that Grail is drone rights (although they shared similarities for sure just like the other 2 you also listed). I also remember MindTraveler, what a fun (/s) person who was always angrily telling off people that Grail didn't like.

Grail is neurodivergent (trans and NPD afaik), so we should be willing to make some accommodations for Their behaviour

Lame copout. They troll and know what They're doing.

Edited for grammar and info

The bot tracks the current votes, not the entire userbase's votes. Right now it would pass if votes stayed the same until the vote is done, but we give people more time to vote so it is too early to tell rn.

Can I positively prove it 100%? No. But I know I'm not the only admin or user one who has connected all these alt accounts, and the user has certain 'tells' that make it pretty obvious imo, especially since it's been going on literally for years. And even if it turns out to be a couple of people running the alts, well then they are both problematic. I mean at the end of the day, there's not much at stake, just a troll losing some reach. And tbh, even if by some chance the accounts turned out to not be linked, I still believe that Grail is acting in bad faith and drama farming.

Although I don't have much of a sway in these votes, I'd still say no. If they're the the only ones interacting on that instance, what stops them from making another instance in a month or two? Do we trigger another vote then to block that one as well? It could be a fun activity to have the monthly "Defederate from Grail's instance", but this doesn't really make sense. I vote to leave the clean-up to mods of instances where this person creates problems. If they don't give up, all they need is yet another account/instance to troll communities here.

Thanks for the heads up. I blocked their instance on my client. Due to my extensive blocks and filters, I have never interacted with their posts or comments as far as I know. I vote no, because content engagement and filtering should always be a user choice. If you personally don’t like them, block the user(s). Block me if you want. It’s your choice.

Without solid proof that the new instance admin is actually the same person, I would be very hesitant to defederate based on the behavior of the older accounts and the conjecture that the accounts are owned by the same person.

Meaning, defederation should be based solely on the current account's behavior. I don't think I've encountered this account, and I don't especially feel like going digging. But if there have been reports flowing in, and the content reported justifies instance defederation, then it should be defederated.

I haven't seen it myself, and since I don't really have time to do digging right now, I'll abstain from the vote.

I blocked that whole instance shortly after the "Banned for Nuttin'" post in YPTB last week. defederating from anarchist comms because of not liking the content, listing the reason as "authoritarianism", then complaining when that mod issues a reciprocal ban is some pretty shitty behavior. but then, so is the constant badjacketing and insistence that only one kind of anarchism is the "right" one. I vote for FOR defederating.

yes, refusing to use someone's preferred pronouns is transphobic, regardless of how you feel about them. basic human respect. how is this still up for debate in your mind?

yeah understood. it sure sounds like drag which is the only other one of those accounts I've come across.

personally I think They have unpopular opinions that They're passionate (to many: annoying) about and I think defed before They do any of the "what if"s people are listing is too extreme

that said, if They do unban Themself or make more accounts on Their instance to evade bans my vote instantly changes to defed but as of now I don't think it's a reasonable move

I don't have much experience with Grail, I used to and still do cite a few articles They've written (Their Agender article is a good one). Though from my personal experiences with Them and how I've seen Them act towards I do think they are a troll, or at the very least extremely adversarial.

I have had many experiences with dragonfucker, and those were insanely bad. dragonfucker literally harassed me multiple times with alts, created communities dedicated to trolling me, because I and others banned them for trolling. I don't know if Grail is the same person. I personally don't think so since They have had a presence on the internet long before dragonfucker. That doesn't mean Grail isn't an alt of dragonfucker or vice versa. I cannot say that for sure, but if They were and there's good evidence for it I feel like this shouldn't even be a vote since we don't do votes for banning trolls or ban evaders.

All that said I'm still in favor of defederation because Grail's instance and views go against our community's values. From what I've seen recently They've been acting like an insane shitlib troll. I feel bad because I've read the stuff They wrote and thought They were probably a very smart and very respectable person. I guess that's why they say you should never meet your heroes.

I mean like the post says it needs a 2/3 majority while the bot says it only needs a simple majority to pass

I am indifferent.

On the one hand, most of their behavior deserves a community ban for sure. But I don’t know that I agree it deserves defederation.

That said, if the claims of intentional brigading and DM harassment are true, I’d lean more towards defederation.

This sounds exactly like what hateful people say about xenogenders not being valid as trans identities or saying that we are making a mockery of "actual" trans people. This isn't something that's up for debate. Xenogenders are as valid as any other trans identity. It is shitty and transphobic to argue otherwise.

Can you not do that please?

I've actually chucked an upvote onto this post.

While I of course don't want the defederation and deny that I am any of those other people, I think this post is a fairly measured summary of the debate around Me. I'd like to thank the dbzer0 admins for their patience and restraint.

EDIT: Oh wait, upvoting means I agree with the deferation. Well, I wish the vote well!

I am also happy to accept being accused of being these other people if it helps confuse any attempts to doxx them. I believe everyone on the internet has the right to personal privacy and a fresh start. Whether these people have found new alts on the Fediverse or left for greener pastures, I wish them a safe shelter from the public eye.

I'd like to clarify that MULTIVERSE is not a single admin instance. Our other admin is @mechoselachia and @goddessofspeed was previously an admin too. When it comes to big decisions like defederating fedinsfw, I consulted with the rest of the admin team before making the decision.

I'd like to clarify that MULTIVERSE has not defederated quokk.au or blocked !mop@quokk.au. In fact, I was recently unbanned from mop.

You should read My history of soulism article. The word comes from a meme ideology, but there were anarcho-antirealists before the meme, and there are people who turned the meme into a cromulent ideology. Those two groups are now one and the same. Again, the full story is on My blog.

Censorship is a valid thing to do when faced with dangerous speech, such as misgendering, bigoted slurs, and the like. That's not what's going on here, but some people think it is. I'd never adopt a blanket anti-censorship position.

I'm not Dragon Rider, but I'm glad I and drag both made you think about pronouns. I think that's why people think we're the same person. A lot of people live in a bubble with only two or three gender identities, and have never heard of neopronouns before. So they think everyone who uses them is the same person. And if they like the bubble and don't like thinking, they think being made to think it's trolling.

Given that you don't want to use My preferred pronouns, I have a follow up request: would you please refer to Me only by proper noun, and not by pronoun?

Some people think attacking queer people with more radical identities will protect those with more normal identities. I've seen it on many different scales. I've seen gay people who think calling trans people predators will gain them acceptance. And I've seen otherkin who think calling p-shifters trolls will gain them acceptance. It's a cognitive trap that anyone can fall into.

Of course, they can't all be right. They all disagree about where to draw the line! So I call it hubris and I think they should all have a long think about what happens if someone else draws the line before them.

I once helped bust a kinphobic troll. There was this guy going into otherkin communities identifying as an ice dragon. Then he'd take screenshots from private conversations and post them to r/otherkringe. I helped get him kicked out of those communities and protected his victims. That's how you spot a troll: when he laughs at you.

Nobody's seen Me laughing. Because I'm not.

i havent, to my knowledge, heard of or interacted with Them before, so i really made sure to read this whole post thoroughly and then i checked out some of Their posts too.

i genuinely see no direct evidence of trolling or behaviour id call ban-worthy.
theres some comments i disagree with on an intellectual level, but theyre still written in a respectful tone and are nothing that would cause anyone any harm either.

i have limited time, so i think if u wanted Them banned, u shouldve done a better job collecting information as imo this is wayy too little (on top of this ofc that theres no evidence of the other accounts even being Their alts).

as to the claim that They left blahaj, beehive beehaw, etc, accusing them of transphobia.. honestly i can believe Them since otherkin/xenogender transphobia can come from anyone at this moment in time, and ive very frequently seen it come from other trans ppl.

anyway TL;DR i fail to see reasons for a ban of this instance

EDIT: after having spent some more time looking into this (ive read the discussion here and also more of Their comments and some of Their medium articles) i still havent found evidence of the things Theyre accused of doing? and after having read Their article on anarcho-antirealism, the start of this post reads like the author of it didnt even bother looking into it before judging it as not-real-anarchism.

i am above all, very confused now as to how ppl keep calling this person a troll but dont even put a fucking screenshot up of a genuine troll comment of Theirs.

EDIT 2: (apparently i have nothing better to do with my life today)
excuse my tone, but why the fuck are there FOUR SCREENSHOTS OF GRAIL SPEAKING BADLY ABOUT DB0 AS IF THATS GROUNDS FOR A FUCKING BAN??? i am incredibly confused! what does this have to do with anything?? am i not capable of grasping this or what??

the only reason for ban ive seen is Them arguing the "vote for the lesser evil"-argument, which apparently counts as electoralism?
i understood electoralism as the idea that electoral politics should be the focus of political action, but maybe others disagree on this definition? but even then, wtf do these comments "agitating against our instance" have to do with anything? thats not against the rules, is it? it just gives it a "look, this person we want to ban is also ugly and unlikeable"-vibe that makes it seem like ur trying to manipulate ppl in a certain direction. not saying that its intentional, but thats the only way i can read it right now and others have also criticized it here before.

i am at my wits end. if anyone can explain this shit to me, id be very grateful. id much rather be wrong. i dont want this instance to become a shithole that bans and defederates ppl based on fuck all evidence. again, excuse the tone, i dont mean to offend anyone, im just kinda angry and confused rn.

Make an alt account in which you loudly complain about the accusations against Me while offering no substance to your argument, thereby seeming to be My alt account, fabricating evidence that I use sockpuppets, and inoculating people against future defences.

Also please don't misgender Me.

Oh, wait, you're on MULTIVERSE?

sigh If you're genuinely interested in joining our instance, I'd appreciate if you'd delete all of your comments in this thread and refrain from engaging in drama concerning Me.

Otherwise, I'm going to take your use of our server as an act of impersonation and defamation, which is bannable under rule 3.

Y'all, someone came to this thread and impersonated Me with a sockpuppet they registered to MULTIVERSE (with a dick pic as the pfp. Ew).

Can we not do that? I understand if you don't like My instance, but you're undermining your own side's credibility when you use sockpuppets to troll Me. This whole debate seems to be about accusations that I'm trolling, so when you send trolls to My instance to troll Me, it makes your side look like hypocrites.

The major problem with lemmy is all the obnoxiously irritating people driving away the relatively ordinary ones.

The bot just doesn't have a setting for it. But the defed is not automated anyway.