If your vote is guaranteed you're already being ignored completely. Why should Democrats listen to anything you say? They can do anything they want to you and you'll beg for more.

his best chance was in 2017 right after he got elected. that's how Obama pulled it off. No way Nobel committee would've done that by the end of his second term.

he got that? never know that before

Are they an alternative it just another head on the same body? A hyperracist capitalist party is not a practical alternative to the hypergay capitalist party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Nobel_Peace_Prize

There was a reason even if you don’t agree with it.
It may also partially explain Trump’s drive to do the opposite since Obama is a permanent fixture in Trump’s dementia-stricken brain.
https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/peace/2009/obama/facts/

Worth noting centrist democrats are simply Republicans-light. They cave to conservatives constantly to get concessions republicans immediately undo as soon as they take congress.
Democracy has not fared well since democrats caved to Reagan. Schumer’s legacy sucks.

Let’s focus on what’s going on now, shall we? Whatever happened before was what happened before. What is happening now will continue to happen if you spin info this way

You, 30 april 1945, after Donitz was appointed president

Are you being ironic or

They frequently give them to gusanos who advocate for bombing their own countries, and they gave one to Kissinger, so I don't think that matters much to them.

For anyone who doesn't know this, the current ex-CIA Democratic governor of Virginia did not go through a primary. Was just declared the candidate by party fiat.

weren't there a guy who got the prize and then did 180 and committed a bunch of war crimes?

still a poor choice in hindsight.

The thoughts of the only Chinese national to win a nobel peace prize. It's a truly vile institution that spends the majority of its time laundering the horrific histories of some of histories most vile people and institutions.

Interviewer: “Then what conditions would allow a true historic transformation in China?”

Liu Xiaobo: “Three hundred years of colonization. Hong Kong took a hundred years of colonizing to get where it is today, so the mainland, huge as it is, would need three hundred to reach Hong Kong’s level. I don’t even know if three hundred would be enough."

That's appalling, and very relevant.

ICE didn't exist until 9/11 because they're functions were served by other agencies. It's always been a grift.

There is always a reason...

Help me see the line between "normal" and authoritarian.

This article comparing obama to the first trump presidency calls out that trump did not prioritize the enforcement goals he put forth. Obama did prioritize them, but included a blanket priority to remove anyone who entered illegally after 2014. I don't see how the distinction between targeting individuals convinced or charged/suspected of criminal activity has any meaning if the obama priorities include blanket removal of people who entered after 2014.

My perspective is that the distinctions only have meaning to those who prioritize the appearance of respectability, or those seeking to minimize disruption to sectors of the US economy that rely heavily on the ability of capitalists to exploit the uncertain status of undocumented individuals.

Perhaps that is where the line sits for those who feel that the dems being on board with ICE during obama but opposing it during trump was reasonable and consistent.

This article compares Biden and the second trump admin. (It's got a different take than the first but I'll be honest I just googled comparisons of the two admins and assumed the facts would be accurate and that I didn't need to read into their analysis, if you disagree with the facts I'm happy to listen).

If we carry forward the idea that it is just to prioritize the arrest of undocumented individuals with arrests and convictions, the percentage of annual ICE arrests that were of people with arrests or convictions were:

• 2022 (biden): 32.5%
• 2023 (biden): 43.3%
• 2024 (trump): 71.7%

Yes, there has been a significant increase in deaths in ICE custody since 2024. I have not found annual stats for deaths involving border enforcement, so I don't know that a meaningful comparison can be made about the use of force overall. And yes, trump is deporting people to countries where they have no status. Biden did that too, however, by extending the trump initiated title 42 expulsion where people are expelled to their country of last transit. I guess the question is, do people feel that if there are a larger number of individuals with criminal charges or convictions deported, do they feel the increase in deaths at the hands of the enforcers are justified? How many deaths, injuries or use of force or detention are justified in boarder enforcement?

Finally, yes, trump is using the deployment of ICE as a threat against people in cities he considers his enemies. I don't understand why this, in particular, is causing uproar. Not because I agree with it, but because I think there are so many different reasons it could upset people and I want to understand which ones are upsetting whom and why. For example it could be that:

• it shatters the illusion of immigration enforcement as the good guys.
• it forces those who oppose ICE in general to take a stand or appear hypocritical, potentially overwhelming existing support networks and leaving people scrambling and exhausted.
• it is an implied threat against those with status (as bystanders or suspects themselves) with the implication that having status should be protection from state use of force.
• it implies that more 'good' individuals who are without legal status will be removed

I'm sure I'm missing some.

To be clear, I'm not seeking to agree with people on their stance or cause them to agree with mine. This is why I have avoided giving my opinion on the topic of ICE overall. I just don't understand what people see when they say this time is so much different than the last.

It's clear the bar for the activities of ICE (and CBP) being acceptable is very different for different people and I wonder if that's the key to the disagreement on if the meme is "fair".

Unfortunately, ICE does a lot of things other than being Trump's personal paramilitary force. Either we can continue to fund it, but at a reduced level, or we need to replace it. Honestly we probably need to replace it at this point, because ICE has such a bad reputation that good people will be discouraged from taking a job there.

It loads now. Must have just been a brief outtage.

We could just dismantile it completely, and not have to fund it at all.

They've never performed the "normal functions" of border security. They've always pretty openly been racists who kidnap, torture, and deport people that they don't like. We don't need that at all.

Luckily for us the Republicans aren't the only alternative, just one of many.

To the RNC, The Democratic party is something between colleagues in empire, controlled opposition and bratty subs

normal border security, (...), must have

No and no

Lets not bicker and argue about who killed who

If the Democrats in Congress don't want to be held responsible for today's storm trouper ICE tactics, then maybe they shouldn't keep increasing funding to ICE, and training them to act like Storm Troupers.

I like how providing evidence that the Democrats don't even deny is "spinning info"

Most if not All of our law enforcement agencies are completely out of control. Under both republicans and Dems. Laws are not followed. Remediation by the courts is not a given. Under this system its not reasonable to say, "we must have border security forces". Its like saying we must have drug sniffing dogs in a world where every dog has gone rabid. Sure they will bite and kill, but we must have that function they used to do. No. Just no. Plenty of other countries make this an administrative process, and even now ICE is rounding up people on civil charges, immigation violation is not a criminal charge and never has been.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/ice-plans-to-destroy-records-of-abuse-sexual-assault-in-immigrant-detention-centers/

This is the first result I found, after doing less than 5 minutes worth of searching. I've always found it better to do basic levels of research before I start talking about things. Maybe you should too.

So what you're saying "/u/stummies" is that if we didnt vote for Harris in the last election, who was annointed without a primary, who was on stage with a republican talking about her guns and praying, while also saying she wouldnt change any of Joe Bidens policies which were polling underwater even with Dems, whose mega-zionist husband guaranteed that not supporting Israel (antisemitism) needed to have "real consequences"... If you didnt vote for her you dont get to be part of the political process. Is that right? No one buys your diet fascism here. And you're either a simpleton or a republican. Get off our lawn or shut the hell up. Take your pick. But you dont talk to us that way and you dont make any rules or demands of us.

What the post is clearly inferring, is that Demcratic voters don't care about the attrocities that ICE is comitting, they only care that the Blue Team is the one doing it.

If you are against the Republicans because of ICE, you should be against the Democrats because of ICE.

I'd like the DNC to acknowledge your realization and act on it, as if they had an election to win instead of just checks to cash. Too much to ask?

if not just vote blue and pray for a better candidate

The dem leaders cannot and will not win without addressing voters needs. They need to own that idea as a group. Every time they are anywhere they need to be yelled at until they get in line. Right now Trump is trying to make a witch hunt case against Illhan Omar for instance and have her deported. She is a US citizen. Where TF are the Dems in defending her? If they dont defend her because she is of somali descent, then its time for scorched earth on the DNC. I'm tired of traitorous behavior from the DNC and I'm not going to just vote for them and hope.

Effing Gavin Newsom is trying to not only kill the billionaire tax measure in California but also ban any future wealth taxes. And you suggest we go along and hope they give us something better in the future? why would they ever do that?

https://www.commondreams.org/news/newsom-future-wealth-tax

Considering that there’s basically just Dems and Reps on the ballots...

Thats not true at all. I had a few options that weren't Dems or Reps. In many races, you can also write in people.

...your post is definitely anti Democrat...

Wait, so you are upset that they are against ICE, kidnapping, torture, and murder....? I'm not sure you realize what that says about you.

...I can only infer you want Republikkkans to be voted for an win.

You can inferr a lot from what they said, but you are the one who appears to be pushing people into supporting Republican policies, not the OP.

It does seem like we've completed dropped non americans-- they dont count as humans with rights (this is Dems and repubs, not just repubs). We're in the process of dropping gay and trans now, and indians are in the republicans crosshairs, so they're up. I do wonder if brown, black, and latino are next, then asians, then women and children. This is what conservative-lite is about. Same results as conservatism only slower and with some sweet talking and DNC dems shushing us while it happens.

we didnt have ICE at all until 2003, and we seemed to have been fine. Were we like-- living in caves and engaging in canibalism in 2003? I dont think we were.

Was the country better or worse off before 2003? ...Better right? By a lot. So who cares if people are discouraged from taking a job at ICE. If they are that gives me a ray of hope that some Americans are fundamentally decent people.

He seemed to have mostly gotten it because he was the first black president of the US. Though, they might have thought it would spur him to get out of the wars in the middle east (it didn't).

The trick is to kick where the football is going to be rather than where it is.

And which of these many alternatives is going to get more than a single digit percent of the vote?

"I didn't vote for positive-candidate but rather Blue-Hitler at least as I know he's electable, we got to vote blue no matter who after all!"

brown, black, and latino were already routinely murdered by the 'normal' police.
The white libs don't care about those either, regardless of their US citizenship

Germany still prosecutes people who guarded their concentration camps. That's what should happen to every single member of ICE. They knew.

Or we could simply not abduct and terrorize immigrants for literally no reason (beyond racism).

normal functions of border security, which we must have

Lmao, what? Why?

Probably not many, because the Democrats fight against the parties that want to stop bombing kids. Maybe if voters like you would stop supporting the child-killers, and start supporting the anti-child-killers, they would start winning.

Because the Republicans don't pretend to be anti-ICE. The Democrats do. Of course OP focuses on the party that fights leftists. Unlike you, they don't want ICE to continue on.

A post specifically decrying Dems without also specifically decrying Republikkkans is obviously anti Dem, and pro Republikkkans.

That's not obvious at all. In fact, that's a blatently false statement. It's an anti-Dem post, but I see no mention of support for Republicans, except from people like you, supporting their policies.

I want to shoot and kill every I.C.E. member I see, but I know that won’t work, and I didn’t have the means yet.

Yet you keep defending and supporting the people who fund them. Something about that tells me your anti-ICE rhetoric is unserious.

So I’m gonna ensure that I never vote for the party that perpetually has 200+ votes every single time to ensure or raise I.C.E. funding.

But you will vote for "the other" party that also votes to ensure and raise ICE funding.

The obvious pro-I.C.E. party is the Republikkkans. I will always vote against them. And always have.

Well, the Republicans are one of the obviously pro-ICE parties. And you may vote against them, but you sure are keen on voting for their policies, as long as the Blue Team is doing it.

Also, I understand mitigation, and I’m not a single issue voter, unlike the myriad Republikkkans in this comment section.

I've yet to see any Republican, or single-issue voter in these comments. Maybe you can point them out to me? But something tells me that you wont.