It's like... Ironic luddite.

Oh you just know people has put NetBSD on a phone. Doubt it's been done with a GUI though.

Both Darwin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system)

Ah, no, sorry about the miscommunication.

Upi is massive in India. Big to the point that not having access to it is more than an inconvenience, it will be like Microsoft going down.

However, it is technically a protocol with federated servers and apps. Hence, there's no single point of failure.

I meant to say if a crucial system with a single point of failure had no alternatives, it would have been scary.

Naaah, Win 7 was best. They didn't fuck with control panel, Aero slapped, system was fast, stable and customizable. Win 7 was a system made for the user and felt like future.

8 was, from what I heard, not that bad and 10 entered freefall. 11 got jetpack, but was badly oriented so it boosted itself down.

So no tinted glasses. 7 was actually great.

No one anywhere is daily driving a fully Foss OS, unless you can find someone running a GNU+Linux RISC-V PC, and is using it daily (sitting in front of it with keyboard & mouse or handicap equivalent) in some sort of non-automated desktop use fashion. Also they can't access like 99.9% of the web.

x86-64 instruction set is proprietary. ARM is proprietary. The drivers within your smart phone modem are proprietary (unless you are someone who is using mainline PostMarketOS, which I have high doubts about)

In this day and age we're mostly doing harm reduction. Android is harm reduction compared to iOS, just as GrapheneOS is harm reduction compared to AOSP. Maybe some day in the gay space communism future we can have pure fully Foss devices, but until then, we are stuck with harm reduction.

Yeah, maybe. But they might be the smart ones. What do you need a mouse for if you have no need?

Stop Patrick your scaring him.

It is composed of code derived from NeXTSTEP, FreeBSD[3] and other BSD operating systems

Which is why I sometimes call macOS "NonfreeBSD"

And Windows is "NonfreeBS"

They're children. You can't say if they'll need a mouse or not. This is the math argument all over again: "I'm never gonna use __ ever". That's just bad logic. That you were/are a teacher and honestly presenting me with this level of argument is actually shocking.

Some of those kids are going to need to be engineers or writers or programmers or teachers or editors or whatever other productive members of society and not just ipad consumers.

Yes, systems will change. Yes, technology has so far enabled a lot of people to get by with only touch input. But even though a lot of stuff will change and the need for i/o like mouse and keyboard will shrink, unless we make some serious breakthroughs, there will still be a need.

"Why need a mouse when you have no need" the ape refuses fire because it has not needed it so far.

PlayStations and god knows what is some closed BSD. Apple are not alone in eating the BSD free lunch and giving very little back for it. Kind of the point of the license. It's why Linux took over in most places, you can't just take because of the GPL.

hack your banking app, steal all your money and your identity. yikes.

sad part all of this would be fixed with well documented open standard API, that all banks have to comply with and 2fa of the users choice...

BSD was the OG windows haters. Apple was the OG ,"Let's license hardware/software and call it our own".

remember where Darwin comes from.

was plenty on the mailing lists and Berkley message boards to suggest they hated DOS at the time. mainly because it was being bundled with workstations despite all the effort to get it treated as a multi-user OS, when terminal sharing was still a thing and M$ still didn't have a solution.

~ I'm old...

fun fact, the first smart phone, before the iPhone was built on a netbsd derived base. it had a dialer and contacts app.

but it was ofcourse just a prototype...
there was a smart watch too, but it had a battery life in minutes, not hours/days lol

historically all early adoption attempts at mobile smart devices suffered from battery restrictions which killed them. they were both too early and too late. by the time battery tech was nearly ready, companies like Apple took advantage of market position to prevent competition, by getting suppliers of LCD and Battery technology excluvely locked to them...

and forced to charge app fees and subscriptions to update the app, every time apple decides to add some unnecessary control or UI change. all for apple can collect a portion on all those tasty fees.

"I know everyone warned me walking in lava was a bad idea. but my wife, who is addicted to tiktok and lives beyond her means constantly, Insisted it's amazing. the best new trend. now I'm locked in...

litterally, I'm locked in, the hospital won't let me leave as I have no legs. I'm stuck... I don't know what to do. ~ Sent from a iPhone"

yes, please shame. shame is effective tool. it's the same tool that got people into using apple ecosystems in the first place.

build up enough frustration, they will download their data to file, sell their devices and jump ship. while telling their wife to "please think beyond a check mark, or will I have to bail you out of jail when your smashing TVs in the shops because of a tiktok trend telling you to".

it's hard to switch and go against the flow. the longer you wait, the harder it gets. till one day, you cannot leave at all.

(most of this is a joke)

with Linux, you invest your time once. with apple, android and M$ you invest your time, and your money after every patch and change.

every new subscription fee, every added bug that's actually a "feature", every forced "upsell" for a "feature" they once offered but removed to put it behind a paywall, shove AI into it and host it from a "cloud" server 2000km away.

its the same logic I heard over "I don't need a keyboard, I have a touch screen". smh.

just because something is different to what you are used to, doesn't make it bad...

now what is bad, is all these parents giving iPads and iPhones to kids under 13... fml, do they not realise how developmentally stunted it makes them.

they become obsessed with the feedback and can't differentiate between "not getting feedback" and happiness. it's a epidemic, all because they don't want to deal with their kids interacting with them... if they don't want them, dont have them...

Linux users like: you merely pretended to hate, for your friends believed your posing.

I honestly spent like a week, outlining what I would need to build a FOSS phone, on RISCV.

current revision could do it. it would be a bit slow, but it's possible...

all was good till I hit two hardware bottlenecks.

1. GPU: unlike ARM which several manufacturers have 2d/3d accelerators. RiscV really doesn't have that. all current implementations are primitive... (I have a Spacemit K1 SOC, I have been prototyping with and it's entirely Vulkan based and stuck in mid stages of MESA development. so *Gl in Vulkan wrappers are broken... GUIs perform like a m68k machine from 1988...)

2. this is the big one, Modems. there is only two suppliers and both are vendor locked. they won't provide hardware to ANYONE without a contract. --- this is why 5g USB/PCI-E modems don't exist. there is a monopoly no one is talking about...

until these two points are addressed a foss phone is not possible. not even close. ~ even if you damage control on software (aosp) and some how convince amd/Intel to sell you chips for GPU on a PCIe lane sharing ram...

your still stuck on the modem. some one needs to get the ball rolling on a monopoly suit against the big two.

what are you talking about.

Ux/UI has slipped over the last decade.

build quality generation after generation got worse.

os efficiency, my iPad is TERRIBLE...

They actively sabotage old devices to make their performance and battery life /worse/ so it makes new devices feel better...

then you say "best value". that's some major copium. what value is there in a $2000 device with $180 worth of components, a locked down ecosystem that tracks everything you do, scans all your data and sabotages your applications...

I remember first gen iPhones. I had one. I still have lots of classic apple hardware. you are literally sounding like a apple care technician.

easy to find the bots in this thread.

ever heard of Linux and Framework? arm is great for phones, doesn't belong In a laptop...

M1(and successors) are amazing processors. but, being stuck into a ecosystem for one is not worth it. I for one cannot wait for full size RISCV CPU cores... honestly, the market desperately needs a shakeup from all of this "I didn't have a choice, so I chose the most expensive thing that met my minimum specs" copium.

honestly, most issues I've seen recently have been relegated to ubuntu-derived distributions like popos!

it's so silly to me how people have this strong misconceptions. I get it for some weird hardware or hardware that EOL that people are clinging on to with windows 11 and grandfathered drivers...

but that's getting rare... I have a mothballed AMD R9 290X piledriver system, still sitting in storage. that can even run modern Linux distributions... meanwhile my 2 year old (except for GPU, which I got this year) system runs just as flawlessly.

I don't get it at all.

what bothers me more is them constantly scanning files and storing summaries/metadata for "law enforcement".

could they be more like google... they already got the pretending they were doing no evil phase and going back on it done down pat.

and yet it will still listen, just not trigger. check wireguard...

you either have them on your home screen or in the app page... which is just as bad UI I might add.

if you can't remember what the app is named, you spend 3x as long searching for the app in multiple, poorly named categories...

it's gnome UX all over again...

Apple has had operating systems long before OSX in 2001.

Apple is just a few years younger than Unix

and then they bricked all older devices in Australia, because some providers are lazy.

instead of forcing the providers to stop being lazy..they bricked devices so they can't use 4g networks and you have to buy a new iPhone...

this is not a isolated issue...

my iPad, that I rarely use and sits off 98% of the time. the battery health doesn't degrade, but the performance and battery life does with every update...

they are a scientology of the tech space...

iOS is a wheelchair, that wheels you into a applecare subscription and handcuffs you to the ecosystem... while removing or lobotomizing third party apps.

iOS is what you give to the drooling kid that just presses buttons on the screen over and over. because you know there is nothing they can do to really damage it, except call emergency services, which you will probably need after bashing your head on the screen 30 times while it refuses to let you install a update as you downloaded a image file it can't upload to iCloud as your 50mb quota is exceeded and now it can't do backups.

only one of them /was/ based on Unix. a extremely stripped down, and proprietary modified version, with all the strong points removed as it made it Unix compatible...

also for the record, m$ did have a Unix variant once, with a UI. it wasn't populare due to the lack of applications.

Apple spent a ton of money, paying developers to lock their apps to Thier ecosystem. even bundling them with systems...

both only became popular by stealing, manipulation and forcing companies into exclusivity deals. they are both monopolies of their own respective architectures.

I wouldn't feed it to strays. it's like poisoned sausages that animal control uses. it looks and smells good, so the desperate fools think they can fill their starving bellies... only to get locked into a death spiral.

apple, google and Microsoft are all perfect examples of what happens when you mix a lack of ethics with people desperate for anything that isn't junk.

windows XP and 7 were there last attempts at selling a OS to run apps.

windows 8/10 was there first attempt to building a ecosystem, designed around the principles of EEE & subscribe...

whole reason for ai In 11 and coming 12, is to build a dependence and make you subscribe for a copilot subscription so your PC isn't slow when your trying to get it to load apps at a prompt as they removed the launcher again...

hardly. Aero seen it's development start before aqua was a published design.

Aero appeared in MSDN builds a full 4 years before...

if anything its a ripoff of a old gnome 2/3 theme. I think it was called ice?

alot of that era was ripping off gnome and KDE ui designs... there was Portable Media Players using Linux kernels on arm hardware that predated the iPod and Zune by a full 3 years...

advertising and paid reviews on tv and magazines got you sales and buried everything back then...

you could steal the US president and hide it with a single fox news broadcast in 2009...

I was playing Doom on SPARC Unix, when apple was still trying to add resizable windows...

I don't think people realise just how much they were screwed because of apple and microsoft manipulating the market so much.

PDAs are not "SmartPhones". if we want to go that route, we can trace the first "Smart Phone" to the Berkley Unix "Mobile Phone Device".

iPhone was the first to market, but to get there required them pushing vendors into exclusivity agreements and Steve Jobs threatening to "flatten Thier companies, in court" if they backed out and refused.

Steve was very biligerent to his friends and allies. shrewd, like a dictator, not like a general. if he didn't like your descent he would steamroll over you. he would make promises all the time to his staff, to get them to work harder on projects, just to peacemeal them and shoehorn them into weaker projects that would make customers dependent and demand more.

what Steve jobs did best, is know how to make a cult and exploit the desire for "if only it could do 'X' it would be perfect".

don't take my word for It. his business partners said the same thing... they begged him to come back as he sabotaged them externally when they tried to improve...

apple went through a period where they genuinely were improving. they sold Thier software and hardware to third parties to make Thier own versions...

but then Steve jobs went and sabotaged them, got a massive amount of bad press for apple to make them appear weak, and put the 2 final nails in the coffin.

he pushed software vendors to support m$ and next step more.

then he went to apples suppliers and made it for it was even more difficult for them to develop in-house hardware to compete with third parties...

all of this, so they would start to go bankrupt so Steve could ride in on his white horse going "See, you should of stuck with my vision". then Steve goes and pushes for restrictive hardware with a architecture change so third party models would be obsolete, clones pc-clones from asia (mostly JVC/nec) which were exploring with transparent plastics and still tried to shovel next step to everyone...

If not PDA how do you trace the history of smart phones?

Had to check, Unix was released 3 years before apple was founded. I'd have given a 5-10 years lead to Unix but no, about the same age.

Yea ‘68 for Unix, ‘75 for MS, ‘76 for Apple.

But really it’s ~’80 for both really getting started

https://system76.com/desktops/thelio-astra-a1.1-n1/configure

Seems to work fine outside the Apple ecosystem.

I think people interpreted my comment differently than I expected. Most people are Linux users because they like tinkering with their computer. That takes time. Getting all your devices/accessories/accounts working on Linux that used to work on other OSes takes time because they probably don't have 1st party support. Otherwise you can use Android or Apple or whatever and just take what you get with less tinkering.

I've been using the same pro Windows license that I got for free in college and have never paid Microsoft a dime. I don't know of any forced subscription fees. Paying for more cloud storage, etc. is a shitty practice but certainly not unique to MS.

Lol definitely not a bot. I've always been more of an Apple hater due to the ecosystem and business practices, but they've turned it around a lot in the 2020s. They're still a trillion dollar company and not to be trusted, but yeah, they make great laptops.

I main Linux on my desktop and old laptops, like I mentioned. You can say ARM doesn't belongin laptops but Apple has proven that's not true. They outperform just about any chip, with battery life efficiency that is not even approachable by any other laptop chips. That's just the facts. You can spend 3k for a laptop chip that is as good in performance as an M5 (which costs 1k), or you can get a Snapdragon chip that is almost as good as an M5 for efficiency, for over 1k. But not both. That's where we're at. Intel especially is asleep at the wheel. At least AMD is making good desktop CPUs still.

I'm also excited for RISC V, I'm considering getting one on an SBC to make a CyberDeck out of. It's not come as far as ARM yet but it's promising and we need an open standard.

They got pretty bad in the mid to late 10s, but build quality is a lot better now. No iPhone bend-gate level stuff in a while.

This did happen. Supposedly they stopped after they got fined. You can say liquid glass is a less blatant version of that hidden as a feature, but as far as I can tell they don't directly do the "slow down" button for new hardware. And if we're going to talk bloat, Microsoft is far worse. Linux is holding out for us.

You can get an M5 Air for under a thousand bucks with an education discount, which isn't verified. I'd go for the 24 GB RAM 512 storagw version which would bring you to 1200. Might be able to snag an M4 for even cheaper if they're trying to dump inventory. The Neo has a better chip than anything close to its price range of $500. You won't be able to find better build quality OR specs for either of those 2 price ranges, let alone both. Believe me, I remember when they were overpriced 2k Intel machines. They're not that anymore, they're the gold standard, and looking even better with how Windows laptop manufacturers have gotten so greedy. You can barely find anything at all decent that's x86 for under 1k. There's a point where it doesn't make sense to go Apple if you need a ton of RAM and local storage, but most people aren't going to get a 128 GB RAM Macbook Pro.

macOS is demonstrably better for privacy than Windows. Better than Linux? Of course not. Sabotaging apps? Huh?

At the end of the day, I try to get whoever I can convince to go to Linux. I try to convince whoever I can to get a desktop instead of a laptop, especially for gaming. But if they NEED a laptop, or if they NEED apps that aren't on Linux, especially creative apps like Adobe and CAD, I'm sure not going to recommend Windows, from any perspective, hardware or software. Microsoft is just awful these days, and has no redeeming qualities left, with Proton being as good as it is for games. So its going to be a Macbook. If they're a student or general user with a budget that doesn't need a lot of performance, get whatever refurbished business laptop you can get a good deal on with 16 GB RAM, 32 if you can swing it, for like 300 bucks, and put Linux on it.

I would love to see a lawsuit over that honestly. I dont think we'll see it anytime soon unless something extravagant happens, but I'd love to see it.

what year do you think it is?

I am using my VR headset playing half-life alyx, while using my premium Logitech mouse, Elgato stream deck and streaming to YouTube.

nothing has any issues. all of my messaging services have apps and just work "out of the box". setup took me maybe 20 minutes. most of it was just going to my phone for 2fa.

only time this is ever a issue is obscure, windows only applications that use special hardware authentication like some old CAD software. or some silly editing software like Adobe cloud who intentionally block Linux. (also older adobe software is better anyways and works. Linux alternatives exist and work equally as good.)

I remember how it was 5 & 10 years ago. struggling at each step. but it's not the case today. on the rare occasion I need to spend time diagnosing something, it's usually because the company behind it did something disgusting, that makes me want to stop using their services anyways.

it's rarely ever hardware or software that doesn't use online services.

Just two years ago I switched back from popos to Windows for HDR (no mainline support at the time), Logitech gaming mouse/keyboard support (basic m/k functionality worked but the programmable keys were spotty), motherboard temperature monitoring SW (motherboard too new to get reliable values), and occasional instability or weird rendering in gaming (Nvidia).

Linux works great for some scenarios. Development in Linux is great. But it depends on your use cases.

did you?

by the first device intended to run full applications from external developers and interact with a active web.

this even puts palm, blackberry and early windows mobile devices barely outside of the cutoff sadly. they simply weren't designed for the "extensions" people used to make them bridge into becoming a "smart phone".

most of that list also is post-iphone/iPod too, which makes it kinda moot.

it's kinda why windows phone, iOS and Android are treated as the "first" of their kind. as that was Thier intent from the start.

?? in the past yes. but there has been lots of videos on the topic. people talking about how they filter it with firewall rules on their routers, etc.

one of the things I've been happy about in the last 24mo, is the HDR and NVIDIA support. until last year I was still using my old 2070 (non super) as I was waiting to upgrade.

that became more and more rock solid on the open NVIDIA driver.

when KDE put HDR into stable and then proton got HDR. now Firefox and Chrome. I've been in bliss. I don't even get this good of HDR support on windows and I still have that on a secure NVME for work lol

there is 2 apps for modifying Logitech kbd controls. I don't use either, but I would take a look at some wikis if you try again. personally I just avoid logi for anything but mice and webcams. also avoid Razr for anything, backdoors in their drivers are just plain stupid.

motherboard sensors I can get, I have a issue with mine with lmsensors, I'm a longtime Linux user so I can navigate to fix that with some dkms kernel modules... but I totally get how and why this would be a issue and full blame lmsensors for being too bloody slow mainlining sensors... license shenanigans are a pain.