Whenever i talk to people about privacy, specifically my friends when i tell them why i switched to Signal and stopped using WhatsApp, i'm always met with people saying that i'm just making no sense and "why would you care so much if you have nothing to hide? I don't care that meta sees that stuff" and some people are just so stubborn to understand that they might even settle on the "what would a billion dollar company want from me specifically?". It makes me mad how people refuse to even consider alternatives and open their mind a bit. What do you think?

Ask to put a camera in their bathroom

what's accepted now, can and will be used against you...

Ask him to live in a glass house at Madison square garden...

Not caring about privacy because you have nothing to hide is the same thing like opposing freedom of speech because you have nothing to say.

Ask them to unlock and give their phone to you so you can look through their phone

“Okay, unlock your phone and hand it over so I can go through it.”

They need to consider the difference between having something to hide and having something to protect. Privacy is something to protect, regardless of what it might be in aid of.

You have nothing to hide from the people currently in power

The people who used to say “I have nothing to hide” the loudest to me changed their tone real quick once Flock cameras started being used for ICE pickups, arresting people for traveling to other states for abortions, etc

That's where they all get cold feet. All of them.

People had nothing hide but flock camera still put them as culprit. They had to make all the research themselves because the court believe the police and flock.

It’s not about hiding something anymore, it’s about asshole fucking civil servant doing the biding of tech oligarchs because they don’t know better

If you want to be glib: "Okay then, unlock your phone and hand it to me. Also, tell me your home address, your daily route to and from work, and your last three girlfriends. Don't worry; you can trust that nobody will ever abuse this access to your life and past, because you have nothing to hide."

Even if you "have nothing to hide," a malicious or uncaring actor can use your information to disrupt your life or cause you harm. Police agencies go after the wrong people. Crazy people stalk others. Blackmailers look for opportunities to extort victims. As Cardinal Richelieu supposedly said, "give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I'll find enough to hang him."

Google/Facebook/whatever private entity are not innocent. They will happily sell information about you to whoever is willing to pay. Government agencies subpoena data from them, too.

Wikipedia has an easy entry to further reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument

It makes me mad how people refuse to even consider alternatives and open their mind a bit. What do you think?

I've experienced this. For me, it was important to be able to communicate w people AND to not give all my data to Facebook apple or google. Since I can't make ppl care about privacy, the best I could do was stick w SMS/MMS.

Obv, messages I send to ppl who use and android or apple device still get sent up to the mother ship by the receiving device... but I can't control that.

There are a lot of great apps out there and Signal is one of em. I think if Signal still sent SMS/MMS to ppl without it... I'd reinstall. But without that, I'd be using it all alone.

Im getting rambly... what do I think? I think it would be healthy to move on

Tell them to remove all curtains and privacy fences ftom their home.
Also never close a door when they are doing their business - be any kind.

ask for pics of their dick

Ask them why they have a bathroom door.

I might be guilty of using an argument like that sometimes. What I really mean is that I currently value the convenience more than my privacy. "I'm using service X because that seems the most convenient choice for me and I don't really care whether someone I won't ever meet is reading my data. But I could also use service Y if it's just as good and convenient as service X."

Point being, I'm always willing to start using a different thing as long as it works for my use case as well as (or preferably better than) the thing I'm currently using.

So, instead of trying to scare me about someone spying on me, try convincing me how the other service works better than the one I'm currently using.

You could make a super long argument against this but I think there's a few simple points (that you can use any number of, you don't really need all of these at once for most people) that usually get it across to people, at least from my experience.

There's the moral/emotional argument:

"You do have something to hide. Wanna unlock your phone and let me go through all your messages/photos/emails, leave the bathroom door open all the time, and never close your blinds? Even if you aren't doing something illegal AND have no problem with me seeing all your conversations and data, privacy is still a comfort for many people"

...and there's the monetary arguments:

"If a company is collecting that data, it's because they make money off it. It's a multi-billion dollar industry, and it's the only reason Google, Facebook, etc can physically exist. If they know more about you, they can manipulate you into spending money with advertisers easier, allow political campaigns to manipulate your opinion more effectively, etc"

"You might not have a problem with how your data is used now, but if the law changes, or a corporation decides to do something different, suddenly data about your health and finances that was just for ads might then become a way to increase your health insurance pricing to the max you can afford"

Ask if they close the stall door while they poop.
Would they be happynif all the toilet stalls had no doors?
Then use that to point out its not about hiding anything, its about having choice and agency to control what you share.

Ask to see their butthole

I think you would switch your tune if you realized how much data your phone provider is selling about you. SMS is so much worse than Apple’s iMessage, which is e2e encrypted.

Like it’s pretty telling that Apple didn’t give data to the government when a literal terrorist killed a bunch of people, but the Feds can put in a simple request form and get the same data from Google in ten minutes.

The phone providers all sell off your info on their data marketplaces.

Dynamic pricing.

Your grocery store will know enough about you to charge the maximum amount you're willing to pay and not a penny less.

It's already happening to me. I'm transgender. It's already happening to me, my political views are being classified as extreme. I'm on lists. I'm surveiled.

It might be happening to you too.

If you have nothing to hide they will put things in your pockets when you aren't looking

I don't really care how much they know about me specifically. But I'm very worried how much they know about all of us.

It’s hard. Try to make them understand that it is not really about their data specifically, but about what these corporations can do with the aggregated data from millions of people. They can know things about us that we never told them and never wanted them, or anyone, to know. They can manipulate us into actions and behaviors that may or may not be benificial to us, that makes them the most money. They can decide who wins an election. They should not have that power.

I used to try to explain that to people. I would try to explain to them that all the private data is used to adjust how they pay for things adjust how much they pay for things. It can adjust their ability to get a loan or how much they’re going to pay on the loan.

In very short order, it’s going to affect whether or not they can even get a passport.

And after a while when I say a while, I mean a number of years. I realized I was just screaming into the wind. They don’t care they don’t want to care. They have no interest in learning and when it comes back and bites them in the ass, they will make an excuse that it was something else that did it and not their own damn data.

This is a long winded way of saying I gave up. If they’re too dumb to figure it out that’s on them. Fuck ‘em

Unlock your phone, open WhatsApp, hand it to me.

Saying privacy doesn't matter because you have nothing to hide is like saying free speech doesn't matter because you have nothing to say

Can I come and search your house? You have nothing to hide so what’s the problem?

Ask them to unlock their phone and hand it to you. Let you go through whatever you want.

Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different from saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say. - Edward Snowden

You will see me on the news when I set the speed record for breaking every single electronic price tag in an entire grocery store.

Then why do you close the door when you take a shit?

You might just be in a bubble of privacy-minded people. I know many people who would hand over their phone unlocked at the drop of a hat. Their digital lives just don't mean anything to them. But more likely, they don't appreciate the damage someone can do with that access.

Do they know about algorithmic pricing? Most people don't like the idea of a company charging them more based on how desperate they are.

Do they know about DHS' new Predictive Policing.

Do they know that scammers can use info they gather about them to run scams on their loved ones pretending to be them?

Do they know that there are legitimate reasons to want privacy? Ex. a journalist investigating a politician or corporation, or a single mom trying to keep themselves and their kids away from a crazy ex.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

I know people that would actually do that, it's too risky.

This is the most compelling argument. I find it gross that companies build a profile of me, but as long as that doesn't change my life, it's an annoying cost of using free services.

However, when the state, the only organization that can legally use violence, has access to that data, it's a different story. Then it moves from gross to dangerous.

This is a good argument.

Yeah, way too many people.

Well, maybe they actually do have nothing to hide? I've recently realised that people who are dependent on Big Tech just don't value their privacy the same way babies don't care about being naked in front of other people. If you hand over the responsibility for your life to somebody else, you kind of hand over yourself, too, and there's no point in seeking privacy anymore. So the actual issue is people's passiveness and lack of agency in their interaction with tech. If they embrace FOSS, that is being a creator and not just a consumer in the world of software, they'll start valuing their privacy, just like a teenager learning to be independent simultaneously develops the need for having their own boundaries.

Ask them for their SSN, bank account number, and how much money they make before taxes.

i switched to Signal and stopped using WhatsApp

🤦‍♂️

A few points:

• "I have nothing to hide," means you've accepted the premise that the burden of innocence is on you. That you are guilty until proven innocent. There are a couple millenia of jurisprudence, saying 'innocent until proven guilty' should be the default. The US 5th, 6th, and 14th amendments get close, but they don't just come out and say it.

• "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." This has been attributed to a few people from Cardinal Richelieu to Voltaire. But the crux is, anyone can make someone appear guilty. Doesn't matter if you're innocent. The burden of proof has to be on the accuser, otherwise it's down to chaos, and tyrrany of the powerful and the mob.

• Personal privacy by default is one of those fundamental rights that gives us control of a lot of things around us. From freely walking down the street, to our shopping habits, license-plate-readers, location-tracking, who we associate with, and our healthcare.

• Imagine if the rules were changed so any time anyone wanted to use our data, including transactions, web and mobile interactions, credit-card, banking, voting, healthcare, whatever... they had to get explicit, single-use permission. How much weight would be lifted from everyone's shoulder. It means you, the individual are in charge.

• There's academic data on the psychological effects of surveillance. It has actual effect on one's behavior and mental health: https://academic.oup.com/nc/article/2024/1/niae039/7920510

• At this point, there are too many privacy leaks. The only reasonable solution is to flip it all on its head. EVERYTHING is private, unless there is a legitimate reason to pierce that veil, and the burden is on those wanting the data.

It'll have financial impacts on many business models. Yes, and? Do better.

Theres a quote something along the lines of

“I have nothing to hide; I simply don’t trust someone else’s version of justice." When they want to look though my things.

Just because what you do in your home city is right and legal, doesnt mean it is when you travel, when other governments look at you, when other organizations target you. Nothing to hide just means the collective "they" have more on you specifically. Abortions are a perfect example. Get an abortion in a state that supports it, congrats your tried for murder in a state that doesnt. It doesnt matter that you had it in another place.

Also whats legal now is not garenteed to be legal in the future. Your benign photo op 20 years ago can get you in big trouble. Or just shunned (gay marriage in some places).

So yeah, its in your best interest to be annon.

I do have something to hide. I wear clothes, because I don't want everybody to see my naked body. I keep my debit card hidden in my wallet, my keys to my car and house hidden in my pockets, my passwords are hidden in my password manager, my phone's unlock code is a secret, my SSN is hidden on a card in a secure place in my house, which I also lock up securely. I close the stall door when I use the bathroom, I don't walk around with my medical records taped to my back, I don't tell people all the invasive dirty or violent thoughts that randomly pop into my head, and I don't keep my car's title in the front seat, nor my bank account and routing numbers written on my arm.

And I would wager most other people are the same. All of those are completely legitimate things people have to hide, good reasons to keep them secret and locked away. It has nothing to do with being a criminal, or a sick pervert, or a domestic terrorist, or any of the other bullshit fake "explanations" for why people would value their privacy.

And all that doesn't even touch issues like systemic corporate or state oppression, data exploitation, or labor repression. It doesn't touch things like fascist governments coming to power and deciding that certain opinions or expressions of speech are "subversive" and must be banned. How easily "nothing to hide" can become "domestic terrorism" when certain groups come into power.

What is their opinion on datacenters?

“what would a billion dollar company want from me specifically?”

A billion dollar company would want to have their jobs
and any potential future job be replaced with datacenters,
so it'll be impossible for them to have an income in any shape or form.

Everyone has something to hide. That’s why I’m not posting my online banking password on Facebook or letting anyone install cameras in my toilet.

These are benign, ask them medical stuff, ask about which porn site they visit

https://dessalines.github.io/essays/why_not_signal.html#whats-wrong-with-signal

Is this the context?

I did this once to someone and they were like "ok sure here you go..." I wanted to then check their gallery just to make a point, but I ended up not doing it because it made me so uncomfortable. Guess I won't be fit as a totalitarian regime leader 😆.
I just don't understand how some people care THAT little for their own privacy.