You're Just Asking Questions™ eh? Alright I'll bite, mainly for anyone else coming through.

Firstly, so much of the world is actively hostile to trans people that trying to use it as a defense would backfire in the vast majority of courts. The trans panic defense is unfortunately a very real thing that lets killers and rapists get away with heinous crimes. A recent example of this is in Tennessee, where a court overturned a murder conviction upon finding out that the VICTIM was trans, as if that somehow makes it ok - news article.

Secondly, assuming said strawman does make it to a court where they have to plead, under oath, that they are trans and should be sent to a women's prison, and that argument doesn't backfire- the court is going to want to see hard evidence for this claim. A random cis dude claiming to be a woman is very unlikely to have any kind of evidence to show.

Sidebar, I don't think you understand how much emotional and physical labor (and money) is actually involved in transition. Just getting approval for HRT is usually a huge ask, with people sometimes waiting years for approval, and that's just the first step. Mind you this is not an argument for transmedicalism- there are trans people who don't seek the medical route but are still valid. Such a theoretical case would be exceedingly rare and require a level of nuance and scrutiny that I have zero faith the courts can provide, but even then an actual trans person is likely to have a recorded history of dysphoria, social transition, or a name change. It really is not feasible to just "identify as a woman" overnight, and implying as such shows a complete lack of understanding

Finally, it's worth mentioning that trans people are overwhelmingly more likely to be the victims of violent crime rather than the ones committing it - source

I find it particularly interesting that you assume being in the US would benefit you as it's literally heading towards a trans genocide. Fwiw, I fled the US a while ago when I saw the writing on the wall.

Please take some time to meet actual trans people and talk to us, rather than resorting to strawmen

I'm not talking about any defense. I'm talking about legally changing sex as happened in Spain. This is well known story with lots of sources in Spanish. No HRT or history behind it because Spanish law doesn't require it to change sex. A guy simply went to an office, change his gender in a government DB and was sent to female prison.

So, what do you think should happen in case like this? Should this (in the eyes of the law) women be sent to a male or female prison?

And yes, I am just asking questions. What else do you think I'm doing? It's an interesting case, you seem knowledgeable about trans issues, what's your opinion?

Cisgender women have a naturally higher percentage of body fat than cisgender men, so lipophilic drugs have a larger volume of distribution in women. They sink into the fat tissue, stay in the body longer, and can take much more time to clear out. Overlooking sex-based variations in volume of distribution can be dangerous in an emergency situation, it absolutely can result in adverse drug reactions.

That kind of information can be a factor in an emergency medicine situation, it's not worth pretending that it's not the case.

Medicine is one of the areas where biological sex is actually relevant.

Weight isn't the only consideration for emergency medicine dosing, though... There are lipophilic drugs in emergency medicine. CT scanners aren't the only thing used in emergency medicine, point-of-care ultrasound is used by physicians too.

It's not like biological sex is irrelevant in emergency medicine.

Sounds like the problem is a lack of gender equality, which I suppose would in fact need to be fixed first.

Sure, but none of the drugs that would be used in the situation you describe would matter enough to kill or seriously harm anyone. At worst it would just have a longer half life and then you just don't give as many or as high doses later on. And that also applies to many different demographics including old people and people with other medical issues that causes them to clear drugs slower, which is why patients are monitored and dosed accordingly and the dosage schedule is a guideline not a rule.

If some random distribution of body fat could kill a person then you'd have people dropping dead left and right based off differences in everyone's muscle mass to body fat ratio and it just doesn't work that way.

I never said it was irrelevant, I literally wrote that it can be very very relevant in some cases, but it's not so relevant that it's vital to know if you're unconscious and bleeding out.

I mostly agree with you, but it's not like overdoses caused by medical errors don't ever happen either. Because it has a longer half-life (due to biological women commonly having a higher percentage of body fat compared to biological men, for example), medication levels can build up (as you mentioned) and result in adverse effects if you make a mistake with dosing. Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics do matter too.

Just because it's not common (because physicians are trained to handle it appropriately) doesn't mean it's not possible.

Like you said, demographics (including age, biological sex, etc) do matter.

(from our thread in Actual Discussion) It exists as you see it in this weird middle state now because gender used to be completely synonymous with sex (and for most people, it still is).

I first became familiar with the idea of gender in High School in the 90's. Unlike most, I have forestry credits as I was in boarding school and had some very odd classes. We ran an apiary and made our own honey, kept and raced sled dogs, worked a restaurant we ran, ran a library, etc.

We were also tasked with taking care of a square kilometre of forest up in Northern Canada and, as such, had to learn about plant species native to the region. Doing that, we learned about plant gender.

Plants have a gender because they lack a biological sex; it is a different classification system. In regards to humans, however, dictionaries (and people using the term) at the time used it interchangeably with the term sex. The only differentiation that I ever saw between the two was in dealing with plants or heavily academic papers dealing with some very specific things.

Intersex humans were, at least taxonomically, an aberration and not a classification. Early on they presented and operated as whatever their dominant sexual traits would indicate and frequently did not deviate and there was little issue with this.

But even without "gender," and even in the early 80's when I was born, there was a wide berth in what it could mean to be a man or woman.
When people were talking about stereotypes, they seemed to be speaking about things that I'd seen in old TV shows from the 50's and 60's, not things I was familiar with in real life. That "housewife and single breadwinner husband" home shit was long past and seemed antiquated even then. It wasn't BAD to be stereotypical or not, mind you, but other than a few farming households I knew, I never saw the "stay-at-home-Mom" dynamic. Every family had a different dynamic and people fit where they built themselves space to do so.
I knew very few "stereotypical male" Dads or "stereotypical female" Moms other than on TV, and we all knew damn well that TV wasn't true to life.

When I witnessed third-wave feminist messaging start to get big in the 2010s speaking about this stuff like it was common, expected, and had to be destroyed, it was odd to me. It was like they were fighting with ghosts from days long past.

I recognize that my personal experiences don't match everyone, but I lived in Cincinnati, Edmonton, Calgary, Saudi Arabia, Kingston, Amsterdam, Thailand, Kentucky, and many more. The only place I witnessed what could be described as "traditional roles" was in Saudi, and even then it was only defined by a few laws, not the way people actually acted. I knew many friends that had their father completely cowed by their mother even in that insane theocracy.

All that to say that gender in humans... doesn't seem to have a purpose to me. Since gender can be fluid in humans, it is not at all worth categorizing in humans. It means, effectively, nothing. It's like trying to categorize hair colour down to the hex code; it accomplishes nothing whatsoever.

Sex is a medically distinguishing characteristic and is easily definable. It adds clarity. I get why it needs to exist. It has value.

Gender? I don't understand why it came to be used for anything as it hasn't done anything other than stir basic culture war garbage.

In an ideal society? No.

However, in our current patriarchal nightmare, people other than cis-men need various special protections to soften the impacts of sexual violence, sexism, discrimination, and inequality, hence the need to have legally defined genders.

For example, men having heart attacks are more likely to present with the classic chest pain radiating to their arm. Women can have chest pain, but often present as sudden onset of nausea and vomiting with no pain. That's a rare presentation of a heart attack in a man, so a man complaining of severe nausea is more likely to be thought of as GI in nature, but if you know he's trans then alarm bells start screaming that this might be cardiac and you need to do an EKG now.

This is why we need more medical research focused on trans and intersex bodies. It's honestly a travesty that it hasn't been studied much, largely due to the pushback from oppressive governments and transphobes. The problem extends beyond trans people, so much medical research is modeled on white cis male bodies, but I'm sure you're already aware of that issue.

Transition affects nearly every part of the body. It's already known that trans brains more closely resemble their cis counterparts rather than their sex assigned at birth (citations: NIH.gov, Scientific American). It wouldn't make sense to treat a trans woman as a cis man for brain imaging. In trans men, testosterone deepens the vocal chords and can even slow down or stop periods. In trans women, estrogen shrinks the prostate and can even reverse male pattern baldness. Surely there are other effects on internal medicine, both positive and negative

Part of trans liberation involves sponsoring more research in this topic. In your heart attack example, has it been scientifically proven that the symptoms are immutable with transition? Does the amount of time someone's been transitioning affect it? These are genuine questions, I don't know the answers to them

It was a joke about finish language not having linguistic gender. Which I think attributes to many smaller things like Finland being first state in the world to have full voting rights for women.

If you donate blood, depending on the org, you might get a card that has your blood info on it. Seems like a good thing to keep in your wallet :)

Because conservative rich kids wear pink "ironically" as a flex that they're rich, and therefore "manly enough" that they de-gender pink as a color.

to ensure proper law enforcement.

Why?

To identify the correct person? If so, then just let the picture on their licence be the identification.

Ok. I get the sex differentiation when needing medical care. What I don't get is why we have to tell everyone else what gender we are. If you can do the job, what does it matter? If you are driving, what does it matter? You can change your appearance at any time. Now, I know that injuries can happen anywhere, but there are so many variables in appearance and dress that it seems pointless. Emergency services don't demand sex identification before treatment. Doctors treat injuries not sex. Yes, there can be treatments that need this information, doctors do ask for a valid reason. I know I'm neurodivergent. I just feel like it's not really my business whatcha got going on below the "packaging" in a non-having sexual relations soon kinda way. If I would like to have sex with you, I would then start with what I've got going on, then ask if you're ok with that. I've always assumed the people I've had sex with were human, haven't gone wrong with that yet. I didn't decide to have sex with someone on what I think is under their clothing. Communication is key folks. I have made assumptions in my life, but a quick, kind correction is not going to ruin my day. Yes, I've made passes to persons who turned me down, who hasn't? Didn't slow me down. I've mostly worked in office situations, but I did have a few years driving tractor-trailers, even there, you really don't know what the "packaging" covers. I think it's just all just busy bodies poking their noses and prejudice into others people's lives. They can just fuck off with that shit. So many want to bring up safety reasons, maybe we should start with stopping non-consent culture and supporting those who have suffered. Today's culture explicitly supports non-consent culture. It's disgusting. Sorry for the wall of text.

That's sex, though, not gender

If you were looking to ID someone in a crowd, then skin color/heritage (I hate the word 'race') would be an important one, yet that isnt listed on a licence, but is shown in the picture.

I agree that more research needs to be done. I don't know the answers to those questions either. I'm sure there's lots more knowledge out there that is known that I just don't know, but there's also tons of knowledge that's lacking, the same way that there's tons of knowledge that's lacking about women's bodies. Humans are fascinating and there's so many different factors that can affect medical presentations or risk factors.

Unfortunately in the current climate that research is considered too "woke" to "waste" money on, so people will continue to suffer from insufficient medical care even when their providers are genuinely trying their best.

Women are excluded from medical studies and even medicines designed for women are trialed on men, anyway, so I would argue it wouldn't make a difference medically, anyway.

So why isnt race included on IDs?

Shelters for domestically abused women need to be female only.

I agree ... ish

I think sex identification is useful for medical stuff, until it isn't. If I was born with testicles, and I have a motorcycle accident that removes them. I don't have testicular cancer. The bit here isn't that I am "male" so I might have testicular cancer, the importance is "do I have testicles".

Sex is an overall term that may align with certain likelyhoods, chances or diagnosis. But even then, it's not a guarantee.

Trust me, I do get your point, but the reason we don't have race on our ID's is because its arbitrary. Black Irish exist for example.

So why would my skin color be listed on my ID if my picture is there?

Anyone who is cross referencing the picture could simply just say what the skin color or ethnicity is.

In any case, I think your argument is moot. If police are trying to identify someone in a crowd, why would having their gender on their licence help?

If police know who they're looking for, they will look up the person on their computer, and could see gender there. That doesn't mean it needs to be on a licence.

What??? I can, from personal experience, let you know that's just bullshit. Do you think genitals at birth determines who receives domestic abuse? In fact, trans femme experience more domestic abuse by percentage. Should we shove trans femme into an all male shelter? There are more all male shelters by a large percentage in the USA, it's difficult to get into an all female shelter. If they are there, it's for a good reason. FFS. Terf talking points are ignorant.

I'm saying men don't belong in women's domestic abuse centers. I provided no definitions. You chose to jump to outrage.

My first statement is about medical personnel asking valid questions about physical sex. Considering there are quite a variety of answers to this question, it's most likely needed in your example. If you have had testicular cancer, it could have metastatic implications without actually having testicles at that time. I would hope that it would be caught before then, but I take your example to mean your testicles were removed in the motorcycle accident (I assume they are gone?) so you assume that you didn't have, at the time of the accident, testicular cancer? Idk, seems to support my points. No ish involved.

Like anyone for any reason cannot change their appearance at any time. Better explore how many crimes go unsolved, even with an inkling of appearance of the criminal. It's depressing.

Or what description LEO has, no assumptions made.

Women can have kids so in times of war men are seen as disposables. You can't rebuild a nation without women but you basically can without men

Gender on a drivers license is irrelevant for law enforcement. When driving a car the law needs to know your identity. What gender you have when driving a car should not matter.

Ahhhh, a troll. Ic, carry on trolling then.

Lol, it's not listed for protections. Quite the opposite.

Race is certainly not arbitrary, as your previous comment proved and common sense would substantiate.

Which part of my comment proved race is not arbitrary?

Black Irish?

Do you expect my drivers licence to list "black Irish" as a race?

If you want to look at specifically why gender could be useful information in this one example, you can simply envision someone with a beard who identifies as female. The fact that their gender is female could inform an officer what they’d be wearing, where implying looking at the picture would guide the officer to assume the opposite.

I’m not sure why you’re looking at edge cases and making sweeping statements on effectiveness based on those examples.

This example is so extreme.

Even in this example I still dont understand why gender needs to be on the licence

If police know they're looking for a trans woman, why would having the gender on the licence help?

You can't just declare yourself as someone making sense lol

Reiterate your point: give me an example where having gender on a licence is helpful.

I reject your previous example because the police looking for a trans woman would know it's a trans woman they're looking for. Having that info on the licence doesn't help them at all.

Go rage someplace else.

You provided no definitions, just implications, because you're too scared to stand behind your own beliefs.

Own your own transphobia, coward.

So for a trans person on hormones but without updated id markers they would die?

Nah I'm good. I don't think youre arguing in good faith.

I’ve stated multiple points in multiple different comments that bring this out of the realm of examples you brought us into.

Both law-enforcement examples were yours. All I've asked for is one where a printed gender field helps, meaning it tells an officer something they couldn't get from the photo, the police record, or the dispatch description. You said there were "more than enough examples", gave two (which I reject), and declined a third.

You acknowledge police work from the information on their computer systems. Gender can be recorded there without being printed on ID, and neither example gets from "recorded" to "printed". Your rule that more identifiers make a more effective ID only holds for identifiers that add something.

My question was why it needs to be on a licence. You still haven't answered that.

Traditionally, for inheritance & land tax purposes, the woman takes the owner's name; her attributes, kids & possessions are settled or accounted for upon her husband/father's death. Most of these laws were written in maritime law, where men were expected to die in battle or get lost at sea... So who gets a man's valuables is mostly why there are only 2 genders by law, and always have been... The only reason 70 + pronouns were floated as a concept came from Marxist communist pseudo-philosophy, zionists in the White House trying to subvert the education sector and universities to push transgendeisum. That's why all the Ivy League academic institutions have liberal democrats running them now, producing idiots who say "men can get pregnant". American education sector is being bought out, gutted and turned into political brainwashing camps for people who will believe anything.

Little man spouting someone else's ideas. Go away.