and then , once they acknowledge that ?

The reason i ask is that I’ve never heard an opinion from someone with the viewpoint it seems you hold talk about what they'd think in that situation.

and my follow up would be to ask why meat and not electronics (explained below) or textiles or megacorps ?

In general i struggle with why people place these ethical and moral rubicons in the places they do (i do mostly understand why the lines exist)

I mentioned in another comment about the horrific shit that goes in to basically all electronics (there are numerous documentaries and articles on the horrors of cobalt mining for instance) and it seems odd that people are ok with that but not the meat industry, or perhaps fine with both of those but draw the line at baby animals.

Again, i understand why the lines exist, it's the seemingly arbitrary nature of where they are placed for different circumstances that eludes me.

I'm asking so i can gather opinions enough that hopefully i can understand, eventually

https://theecosexuals.ucsc.edu/

So you're aware, that's a really fucked up thing to think. Let alone say.

But maybe we disagree only on terminology?

What would you call the act of nonconsensually sticking your dick into your dog, and do you think it's horrible?

What would you call the act of nonconsensually sticking your dick into your dog, and do you think it’s horrible?

Raping a dog is bad, yes.

Animals can have rights and be protected from unnecessary cruelty without anthropomophizing them and granting full human rights. You're equating full, sapient humans with a species specifically bred for a base purpose without higher levels of thought and expression.

I don't even think that statement is anthropocentric hubris. If ultra-advanced aliens showed up tomorrow and started domesticating humans for food or some other purpose, I would have the default expectation of them having the same or similar morals. Maybe we'd get access to decent healthcare and good libraries before we went to the slaughterhouse.

Cows get more rights than trees or crops because they have an ability to express pain and convey emotion. They don't have the same rights as humans because they could never give a passionate argument for suffrage to a jury.

And to be clear: there are plenty of real, tangible reasons to end animal husbandry and make everyone vegan without even touching philosophy.

Some people are just sociopathic and don't have any empathy for others.

So there exists some group using a weird metaphor, and somehow that is just as representative of vegans as a video of how farming works is of farmers..?

Why doesn't my dog have a right to vote? Why can a snake eat eggs but I can't? Why is it OK for ants to farm aphids but not for humans to farm cows?

Different things are, in fact, different. There are lots of dead simple and airtight arguments for veganism without counterproductive emotional appeals. Talk about economics or ecology or health and not about sad puppy dog eyes.

I JUST RECENTLY found out I enjoy corn now. Dont take this away from me.

What does any of that have to do with eating or not eating meat lol

Way to shift that goalpost. You very clearly said "any vegan", if you meant something else you should have said something else.

I guess I have to caveat my phrasing even when it's super obvious what was meant. Everyone knows you could've found a single example of a vegan doing something bizarre, yet it wouldn't be remotely relevant unless it were at least a semi-popular trend.

Hint: "everyone" in this comment doesn't literally mean every human in existence.

Honestly, if someone is truly aware of the horrors of the animal agriculture industry and is totally fine with it, I would be very, very surprised. I have never experienced anyone who genuinely thinks it's okay. Most people take the position of, "yeah, it's really terrible and I don't like it, but..." which I have to live with because that's most people, but even most of the people who agree it is terrible don't really know the full truth and often they don't want to let themselves find out, because they know in their heart if they truly understood how horrific the industry is, they would feel terrible every time they ate.

If someone genuinely thought it was OK, I would assume that they're a sociopath. Not even in a bad way, necessarily, I have friends who are sociopaths, but I think that's basically the only way you can lack the empathy.

For the follow-up question, there are a few reasons, I'll outline a few of them, happy to discuss further, if you have questions then let me know.

1. An ethical electronics industry is possible, whereas an ethical animal agriculture industry is impossible.
2. It's easy to live a full modern life avoiding animal products. It is impossible to live a full modern life avoiding electronics.
3. The horrors of the electronics industry take place in third-world nations where we have very little influence over their laws. The horrors of the animal agriculture industry take place in our back yards where we can influence the law.

I'm not saying that vegans shouldn't advocate for ethical manufacture and disposal of electronics, I believe wholeheartedly that we should. But it's impossible to have an entire industry for making baby animals, fattening them up, and slaughtering them so that we can make money from people who wish to consume their corpses. It is fucked up on the face of it. Melting metal, pouring it into moulds to make circuitry, etc. doesn't hurt anyone directly, it's capitalism and the drive for maximal profits which cause issues in electronics. I'm a huge proponent for the abolition of capitalism for this reason too.

Hope this helps <3

The differentiation "human" is artificial and made up...

You share 25% of your DNA with a tree, is it slavery to own four apple trees?

Not easy to witness here either, unless it is jut sick private farming (concuss damage witnessing, what cannot be hidden, water damage, noise-disturbing neighbors' sleep & smells-methane & Etc. environmental pollutions-damages & Etc..), which I have right next door.

Beaten-up is a loaded term, doing such things are not the only violence that happens & degrees of it.

As I have said before we, since I live in it to, can become conditioned, along with all other "Beings & people", affecting the witnessing cruelty. I fight to keep myself as a member of our species.

Keep in mind all the lands (& the Beings on them) that used to be a lot better, in my case my deceased grandparents owned the property next door & had a forest of trees everywhere (one area so much, think it was indigenous & naturally occurring, failed nursery attempt)- protected their nearly untouched & formerly crappy home during worse hurricane, that spun off (on us & more) the worse tornado to hit our state. Heck, before our species dominated the land it was a natural wetland, unfortunately before corner into ever shrinking world celebrated Natural Park.

See my reply here for context on why i asked

Lots of animals snack on their babies after birth, can I munch on those?

Look. If you want it to scan, it's got to be "'ppendix', otherwise there's an extra syllable there. :)

By shifting the metaphor from “Earth as mother” to “Earth as lover” we aim to entice people to develop a more mutual, pleasurable, sustainable, and less destructive relationship with the environment.

While quirky, this is definitively less weird than OP's disgusting image

It's interesting how you seem to believe your stance is based on science and facts yet you conducted no research to find out what vegans actually eat. Else you'd have found out vegans do typically eat a lot of protein and generally have healthier diets than the general public. The reason being vegans by definition spend time thinking about what to eat and looking stuff up, whereas many people just eat whatever.

Not much. This is mostly about animal milk production. Cows have to be pregnant in order to produce milk for their calves. But dairy farmers artificially inseminate (rape) cows and steal the milk meant for the calves.

Male calves and cows who get old are sent to slaughter houses for meat, and other products like leather.

So, it does have to do a little about eating and not eating meat, but it is mostly about animal milk.

If people are willing to mastrubate bulls for money, then just imagine what else they are willing to do to earn a buck.

I have seen horrible conditions the private farmed animals, not just cows-steers-calves (I stupidly have not mentioned much about them, if result in such processes for in far future selling to meat industries), for profits of slaughtering & eating.
Two-examples (private farms, next door let male & female do it naturally, not selling their milk) are just summer thunder storms results in mud up to the area between cows'-steers' ankles & knees.
Hoof problems anyone, Around this area private farms with this problem, because destruction of the land, refuse to admit it happens.
&
I hear some & off & on cows-steers-calves coughing, sneezing & breathing with congestion.

If people lived next door to just these non-industrialized private farm, then they would eventually become Vegan.

I cannot see me needing to post about this any more,
I need to get back to deleting my E-Mails to get under GMail's size limits.

I'm not okay with basically anything that occurs under capitalism, but I have limited time on this earth and I have to pick and choose my battles.

Slaves can have rights and be protected from unnecessary cruelty without anthropomophizing them and granting full human rights. You’re equating full, sapient humans with a species specifically bred for a base purpose without higher levels of thought and expression.

Your ancestors, probably

By your logic, obligate carnivores would have the larger brains. Humans are obligate omnivores. Studies show no significant differences in cognitive function, cardiovascular risk, or bone health when vegan diets meet recommended dietary allowance levels. Animal protein contributed during the evolution of the human brain, but the development was driven by cooking. Cooking externalized the energy required for digesting food, which allowed for a reduction of jaws/jaw muscles, and especially gut size, freeing energy that could be used by the brain instead.

Also, the brain is fueled by glucose, not protein …

Hope this helps <3

It does and your points are valid, but i'll respond to a couple if you don't mind.

Honestly, if someone is truly aware of the horrors of the animal agriculture industry and is totally fine with it, I would be very, very surprised.

As would i (outside of the sociopath possibility you also mention) , i was thinking more along the lines of people who fully understand and then accept it as something they can live with.

The comparisons of the meat industry to electronics i mostly agree with, except for this last part, not because it's incorrect as such, i just didn't provide enough context.

Melting metal, pouring it into moulds to make circuitry, etc. doesn’t hurt anyone directly, it’s capitalism and the drive for maximal profits which cause issues in electronics. I’m a huge proponent for the abolition of capitalism for this reason too.

I mentioned electronics because it's easy for people to at least shallowly understand how much they use them, what's not so obvious is the horrors of how they are produced, in a similar way to how people as a whole don't really understand how the meat industry is run.

Long before the metal pouring and assembly you have the rare earth elements industry that uses horrific limb-removing slave work camps to extract these minerals. it's not all of them, but it's significantly more than zero.

There are also cartel like warlords involved in some of the extraction sites.

Think of it as a similar situation to conflict diamonds, but more entrenched and critical to nation state interests.

I mentioned cobalt because it's the easiest to find credible documentaries, reports and discussions about, but it's not just cobalt.

Honestly a lot of the big industries are supported by modern day slavery and inhumane conditions or experimentation, i would also assume that extends to the non-human animals as well but i can't honestly speak to that.

Textiles (clothes, shoes, trainers), agriculture (avocado's have cartels because of course they do, coffee), pharmaceuticals, non-meat food (chocolate for example).

I keep coming back to the phrase "There is no ethical consumerism under capitalism" which aligns with your stance on the abolition of capitalism, but i tend to think of it as there is no ethical consumerism in general (at least right now) because i can't think of a way we could ethically overcome the sheer density of population using the level of logistical technology we have available and that's not even taking into account the (subjective) apparent nature of how human's deal with such large populations.

But me not being able to see how we make the jump from now to a post scarcity, fully equitable society is almost certainly just a failure of my imagination.

My main question is how do people seem to be able to decide they can live with limbless kid electronics but slave labour clothes are too far, cartel avocado's are an unfortunate necessity but meat is monstrous.

I understand that not all of those things are equal and battles need to be picked but it doesn't seem like the subjective severity is the deciding factor and how are the battles picked.

Vegans don't drink milk either. And sticking one's hand up a cow bum is a fast way to identify and treat several health related things. Artificial insemination just makes it easier for the farmers I guess.

If people lived next door to just these non-industrialized private farm, then they would eventually become Vegan.

Heh, I've seen this said sooooo many times, but I feel like the opposite is true. I grew up in a small village, a few hundred people. We didn't have a farm ourselves but many of my friends did, so I hung out around them a lot.

I don't claim to know everything about the conditions because of that, but I did see someone put their arm inside a cow and horse and my grandma once showed me how to slaughter a rabbit (we ate it later), so it's not like I was sheltered from the more graphic aspects.

Yet, when I look back at the people in my life (and I'm quite old and moved around a lot), all the vegans I know are city people. I'm really not aware of any vegans from my home area, which is much more rural. Being around animals in a farm setting doesn't seem to make people vegan, it desensitises them, at least in my experience.

For context: I'm talking about a rural area in southern Germany, I'm can't really say how things are in other regions.

While still technically a theory, the appendix acting as a reservoir for healthy gut bacteria has largely been proven. That function could very well have helped with digestion of raw meat as well, especially if eating raw meats caused issues with diarrhea.

Yes.

Sure, and that's totally valid, nobody is saying you need to become an animal rights activist. I think everyone should try their best to live their values, and that's what I do. It's not about a quest for perfectionism or anything like that, just trying our best as little humans with limited power to make the world a better place.

I've never done that. most people haven't.

for some people

I've dated vegan girls that were into some weird stuff. Granted, it was weird stuff between consenting sapient adults...

I have more belief in the average "person", affected by this all.

You were not sheltered & you were indoctored (SP?) into it.

You know one here, for 30-20+-years, do not know the exact year/date. Plus, being sliding into Veganism or even Vegan in such areas is huge negative, believe me, I knew it, when were NOT invade (too strong, not so sure of that) by The Even Richer-Super Riche Economic Classes/Owners as neighbors, not all, but far, far &far too many that ghost us, unless need something & even more important that the county-state-country-world was a lot more hating Veganism & Animals/Beings Rights.

True, for me as well, not lived in Southern Germany for so many decades.

So let me get this straight, you were arguing with someone, tried to lead them to a contradiction, but they actually had a consistent view on it that you didn't like, and your conclusion is that they have cognitive dissonance?

My friend, I do not think that means what you think it means.

You do it literally every time you purchase a meat product. Meat is made from the dead body of animals. When you buy it, you are retroactively paying for the slaughter of that animal.

I'm not sure on the specific definition of "bestiality" and whether "sexual pleasure of the executing party" or whatever you want to call it is a necessity, but consent should certainly be a part of it.

Animals are, similar to children, students etc, fundamentally incapable of giving consent. If your gynecologist sticks a finger up your vagina without your consent, then it's rape.