Sounds like yet another reason for me to consider switching to piefed sooner rather than later.

🤝

I just need to emigrate first, b4 I make my piefed×jabber service.
I have a quokk.au account already, thanks to them allowing antifa praxis.

SDF is down for me to make my appeals to blåhaj

I agree with the exact opposite of this.
In 2024 the choice of which candidate would lead us to fascism was obvious to anyone paying attention. The left in this country decided to take it's ball and go home, and now we're living through the consequences. The left does not deserve to walk away from this blunder without criticism.

Even if I grant that voting for democrats somehow in some twistabout way "supported facism" (which is bullshit,) it was plain to see for anyone with a brain what would happen if the actual facist, you know, the one posting god damned nazi memes in his campaign videos, was allowed to take power. Now we're living through the consequences of the inaction of the left to get up off it's ass and do something.

Like I said, I'm sick of people like you. I voted to stop facsim. You stood around with your balls in your hands.

Agreed, maybe you should have led with that instead.

I believe what I said was that voting for a lesser evil was not a historically effective way of keeping Hitler out of power. Because the lesser evil won and things still played out the way they did. I didn't say anything about voting in general.

I can live with that.

They value the abstract risk to their personal safety, and that of their loved ones, over the assured mass-murder of Palestinians. I stand by what I said.

Okay, so the left caused your candidate to lose. Aside from the fact that Holocaust Harris would've lost even if she received every single third party vote except RFK's, even including Libertarians who are usually more right-leaning, sure, let's go with that narrative anyway.

The left is the reason your candidate lost, because the left did not find your candidate worth voting for.

Sounds like you should listen to the demands of the left if you want to stop losing then. And we demand an end to all aid to genocidal Israel and no corporate campaign donors.

Otherwise, you can keep losing. You may view Dems as being an obviously-better option than Republicans. I do not, so if you do not convince me otherwise, I literally could not care less if your party continues losing.

Run better candidates if you want to win. That's how democracies work, right?

Yes, America inspired the Nazis, then both America and the Nazis inspired the Zionazis. I totally agree that the American Empire is the greatest sponsor of global terror and the most violent entity currently, or perhaps ever, existing on our planet. I also agree that Israel is effectively just one colonial outpost of that American Empire. Nothing I said was contrary to that, and words aren't "buzzwords" just because you're uneducated on their actual meaning.

Genocide wasn’t on the ticket.

Who gets to decide what's on the ticket and what's not? The party?

I swear, I don't understand at all why you people complain about one-party states. If the Democrats can simply decide that we don't get to vote on whether or not to keep doing genocide, and, furthermore, that it is fundamentally impossible to change out that party for something better, then the thing that separates the US system from a one-party state is that we also have a brazenly fascist party looking to undermine democracy at every turn. Tell me, is the presence of the Republican party the thing that makes the US system more democratic?

Other issues were. If your deeply held conviction is that ICE and all this shit (including genocide) is better than the alternative, I think your priorities are fucked.

This is just once again asserting this ideological framework of lesser evilism that I reject.

buy time

God, I hate that phrase.

You're "buying time" at the cost of directing frustrated energy and momentum straight back into the existing political framework. That's completely counterproductive. You don't even want people to voice their opposition to the existing parties, much less to the system in general, even in a presidential vote that, for the vast majority of Americans, not living in swing states, is a meaningless symbolic gesture anyway.

This "buying time" rhetoric is just about trying to appease dissatisfied people with the fantasy that people are going to spend that time organizing as opposed to going straight back to brunch. It's nothing but procrastination.

Blocked

I do not need to respond to you

Blocked.

Spineless

Spineless

Politicians lie. They say shit that they think will get them elected, and then make decisions once in office. For all we know, Harris has a modicum of morals, and would have put Israel in its place, despite what she said. We'll never know, because instead your non-vote was a vote for Trump, who absolutely was never going to do that. And now the country is falling apart, and the entire world hates us, for good reason. And people are being disappeared off the street, if not straight up murdered. So thanks for your moral outrage. It's partly responsible for this shit show. This isn't up for debate. YOU HELPED MAKE THIS HAPPEN.

Maybe to stupid people it looks like I'm losing, yes.

Still waiting for an answer to my question about what the left has actually accomplished in the last 40 years. You'd think if I were losing the argument he'd answer that.

I guess I should just say yes to Trump like all you purists did.

Tell me, what did you actually think would happen to Palestine if Trump won?
Secondly, of the two (Trump or Harris), which would be more open/vulnerable to political pressure from the left?
Be honest, use reason, tell the truth.

Dont look at words, look at actions.

The fuck? Eat shit cuntface.

Sure. I mean, it beats trying dunnit.

Petulant? Hahah okay man. Look, taking away people's right to vote for felonies is bullshit, you can just say that if it's the case. But four comments in and no direct answer means - we're moving on.

I hope you're high

Weird

"The left" isn't a thing, and 40 years is a hilariously stupid threshold to ask for

lol yea go on the attack to hide the fact that you just outed yourself. Such a predictable bunch you foreign agitators are.

It's still wild to me that the Harris campaign brought on all the same people who managed to lose to El Taco the first time.

Where did you get that? By saying that Europe dont use a winner takes all two party system? Mention one country in Europe that does.

You know what, even if you can mention one, it doesnt change the fact that almost every country in Europe doesnt 🤷‍♂️

I’m more American than you. But since you’re convinced I’m not, go nuts. Moron.

Thats why i said the only real democracy is the Swiss.

In Switzerland you can appoint any person to be your representative, not just the pre-selected candidates, and you can keep them as your representative for as long as you trust them to actually represent your opinions.

If you know that you differ in certain topics, you can you say "hey, i'm gonna make this decision myself buddy" and then you vote on the law yourself, and he can continue to represent you in the elections you agree on.

Or if your representative betrays your trust, you can say "fuck you, i'm finding someone else" from day to day, not having to wait another 4 years to vote for another pre-selected candidate.

Democracy is supposed to mean that the people govern. Any model of democracy where your vote can be used to make decisions you disagree with, is not democratic.

Representative democracy might have been the best model 200 years ago, but in the 21st century it is dated and abused.

I guess so. Sorry for misunderstanding you then. There are some weird accelerationists in this thread and I'm probably irritable because of that.

I stand for the rights of the people. I hold no loyalty to any party or country. But I wouldn't expect any other kind of comment from an ml user.

Lol no you don't, if you're going to lie at least try to make it believable

Voted for harris. But since I tried to warn you that genocide was a losing issue, you assume I didn't.

We'll never know, because instead your non-vote was a vote for Trump,

I've been saying all over this thread that I voted for harris.

None of you give a solitary shit who anyone voted for. The only thing any centrist wants from the voters is enthusiastic support for your only policy: genocide.

Those people will only realize that they’ve fucked up when the fascists they didn’t vote against start coming for their privileged asses.

You're preemptively gloating about the fascists coming for people you don't like. Which in this case is anyone who criticized fucking Harris for supporting genocide. "Anarchist" carrying water for a pro-genocide fash-lite candidate long after the election is over.

Democrats: You don't have to agree with 100% of everything a candidate wants to vote for harm reduction! Just pull the lever for our lovely genocide which is the only thing we'll ever be about! No one blames you for voting for harm reduction!

Also genocidal garbage democrats:

So, technically, I didn’t vote for a genocider. By your own logic, my hands are clean, and you are the genocider.

It was always about supporting the genocide you fuckers spent decades moving to the right to get. I voted like you genocidal assholes wanted, FOR THE REASONS YOU STATED, and you made it crystal clear that those reasons were bullshit and all you ever wanted was votes for your fucking precious genocide and enthusiastic complicity from the left.

You blame people who voted with you because you can't admit that you CHOSE to support FUCKING GENOCIDE AND ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE, knowing that it was going to lose you an election to trump. Because the people you're blaming warned you. You heard that, understood it perfectly, and liked the idea of genocide more.

And when you lose again because your crooked party apparatus forces newsom on us even though the left is screaming at you not to do that because you'll lose, you're not going to listen. We're not netanyahu or maga, so you'll never listen.

Imagine having to, because the most self-righteous, selfish people that possibly exist, opted to take "absolutr worst" over "bad"... and are still justifying it. Still lording thier moral superiority over the rest of us. Still incapable of grasping that thier self satisfaction came at a tangible cost to humans lives.

A big part of maturity, perhaps all of it, is recognizing that sometimes, you do need to degrade yourselves for others. Maybe not even to make things good for them, even just less bad.

Does it make me feel good to boil this down to an analogy like I'm talking to a 2 year old? No. It's degrading to say. I expect it's degrading to hear. But some people still don't get it.

So if people participate in both Primaries and the actual vote, they de facto have more choices than 2.

This assumes honest primaries. Or primaries at all.

We get what party leadership decides.

the republicans need punishment more than any party.

also the democrats don't even want to win so forcing them to serve a term and actually have a fucking job is the greatest punishment you could ever inflict upon them.

He understands why. Centrists prefer to lose to fascists over listening to the anti-genocide left.

Imagine having to, because the most self-righteous, selfish people that possibly exist, opted to take “absolutr worst” over “bad”… and are still justifying it.

I voted for harris.

You think genocide is as wholesome as lemonade.

A big part of maturity, perhaps all of it, is recognizing that sometimes, you do need to degrade yourselves for others.

You've never had to. You got your refreshing cold glass of country time genocide.

No.

Yeah, at all times without exception.

No, that's not what I wrote. No gloating, no ill will. Read it again with that knowledge and you might understand.

No gloating, no ill will.

You basically said that you can't wait until the people you hate for not being as genocidal as you want are put into camps.

Not at all. Try actually reading it. I predicted it with no indication of how I feel.

If you're interested: I think it'd be ironic and tragic, but ultimately even the people who fucked things up for the rest of us deserve empathy.

Doesn't mean they aren't harmful idiots.

Who gets to decide what's on the ticket and what's not? The party?

In so far as the party chooses the candidate to put on it and the platform they run on, yes. Unfortunately, both major parties' leaders are genocidal and rather set in their ways. Rig primaries, ignore popularity of progressive candidates, you know the deal.

then the thing that separates the US system from a one-party state is that we also have a brazenly fascist party looking to undermine democracy at every turn.

In one-party states, democracy has already been hollowed out, so in a roundabout way:

is the presence of the Republican party the thing that makes the US system more democratic?

It signals that there is still some democracy left to undermine. However, if the Republicans were wiped off the electoral map, people could still vote third party, form a progressive opposition and attempt to wrest control of tne Democrats thay way, while a one-party state wouldn't even have that option. Granted, handing the Democrats full control would be a bad idea too, but it serves as illustration.

This is just once again asserting this ideological framework of lesser evilism that I reject.

Maybe I'm just fundamentally misunderstanding what your moral framework actually is.

Once they start committing crimes, you stop caring how many they commit, because at that point it's all just evil? Your response to the Trolley Problem wouldn't be "I divert it to save lives" or "I refrain because I can't condemn one person to death", just "What does it matter? People die either anyway."

Is "voted for someone who would have supported genocide" a worse offense than "DOGE gutting government agencies, ICE terrorising citizens, illegal tariffs sabotaging economy to the detriment of the people, participating in genocide, murdering civilians to drive up oil prices, all the while attempting to ensure that nothing - no vote, no protest, no attempt at insurrection - will ever stop this or pry loose the claws of the winners of capitalism, but at least I get to wash my hands in innocence"?

Because then I will agree with those who think your ideology is stupid, not for its motives but for its short-sightedness. If it is more important to you that you have a pristine conscience than that all the people fucked over by this regime, then I hope the moral high ground protects you from leopards coming to eat your face.

You don't even want people to voice their opposition to the existing parties, much less to the system in general,

I think you have confused me with someone else, because I very much criticise this system as being fucked, which is also why I advocate for building support for change from the bottom up: A new system needs to be set on a foundation more solid than "lesser evil". In local, municipal, primary elections, expressing support for progressive candidates is crucial, because the stakes for losing to the Spoiler Effect are generally less severe...

even in a presidential vote

...except in a presidential vote in a system that is way too top-heavy anyways.

that, for the vast majority of Americans, not living in swing states, is a meaningless symbolic gesture anyway.

If it makes no difference, absolutely, vote third party for the visibility, so long as you vote at all. Political analysts can only guess what non-voters want (or whether they just couldn't vote), which makes apathy the worst illness to democracy: If you vote for something else, your vote at least expresses what you want rather than what you don't.

It's nothing but procrastination.

Then what do you call inaction? Or are you hoping it gets so bad people start revolting, but not so bad they can no longer revolt?

I feel the same way about everyone who insisted that we just smile through the genocide and never actually cared how anyone voted.

Oh yeah, as I mentioned there is a lot of closed-doors choosing going on before the Primaries.

Then the Primaries are rigged (with things like super-voters in Democratic Primaries).

All, of course, all assuming there are Primaries.

This does not add up to Democracy, IMHO, it's just slightly better than only having a 2-choices Vote with no Primaries at all.

The demorcrats would also have gone to war with Iran, if Israel wanted it. Notice how almost none of the majour dems have really condemned the war in Iran, even though it would have been massively electorally advantageous for them?

Maybe they would have done the war more carefully / competently, but they are slaves to the exact same forces of capital, that pushed Trump towards the war.